Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[PMB]

If you were relating to the mentioning of Summertime/Four On Six above: You were obviously using something closer to Gershwin's original. Probably since the Cannonball/Miles version not many people use the half-bar alternating Am6 Bm6 (=E9/B) parts any more. (Unfortunately I have to say. Also not those counter melodies after "And the cotton is high.").

The progression in bars 13-14, | C/G | D7 F/G | is rarely played either with that last bar usually given over to a more conventional ii-V (Bm7b5 E7b9).

[ragman1]

I don't do that either. That D chord is definitely from the original, I think. Mine looks like

Am6/E7 - % - % - Am6/A7+
Dm/Dm/M7 - Dm7/Dm6 - E7/B7b5 - E7/E7+
Am6/E7 - % - % - %
CM7/Am7 - F7/E7 - Am6/E7 - Am6/E7+(#9)

We're off subject, I believe :-)

[ragman1]

This one's got the notes. It's unedited and wasn't for public consumption. Just testing. Incidentally, note the first phrase: G G# A B C D E. Just for fun.

[Christian Miller]

I was just playing over Summertime and watching what I was doing. Quite interesting, I was using F# and F natural and G# and G natural all the time, naturally. without thinking. Nothing to do with 'what scale or mode, etc, etc'.

You can hear it if you like. I know why, because although the Am6 and Bm6 have F#'s in them there's also the Dm and E7alt as well as the CM7 bit which involve F natural . So it didn't matter. If you know it's there, it's there. It's all a mixture and doesn't clash.

and you can do all of that and it will sound 100% less cool than Grant Green soloing diatonically.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I was being a bit of an arse (as Christian would say).

*beams*

so proud

[GuyBoden]

Also yes. A B C D E F# G G# A

Jerry Bergonzi’s Dorian bebop scale. Is it what Tal’s talking about? No. But I have heard of it and it is a thing.

Allan Holdsworth used the same 8 note scale, he called it some strange name.

But, it could be called a Dorian add Nat 7, this D-E-F-G-A-B-C-C#

Here's a pic of Allan Holdsworth with the scale:

[Christian Miller]

Sooner or later everyone discovers this, but if you convert the same notes to be thought of as the m7b5 from the b7 of the Dom it may be easier to "find" in the heat of the moment. But for me, what's easier still is to see all alt Dom as simply the rootless 9th chord a semitone up from the tonic.

G7alt

Ab B Eb F - Abm6

F Ab B Eb - Fm7b5

F Ab B Eb - rootless Db9


As for MM usage, I stopped playing MM scales years ago when I realised I liked my lines better when I simply embellished (diatonic and chromatic) the important alt chord tones (ie, 3rd, b7th, b9th and b13th). Am I missing any "juice" by not including the b3, the b5 and the Root? Well no, because they all appear as added notes via all the ways I like to embellish the more important tones.

If anyone reading this is new to the whole "use MM for Alt Dom" thing, remember that everyone of your favourite players handles alt Dom differently, and that may or may not involve thinking in terms of MM. You can sound like a complete player in any Jazz sub genre without ever practicing a single MM scale.

Happy to invite comments from those that may disagree.

Yeah. I think a lot of people start with the hard stuff.

The truth is in minor keys you can basically play diatonically and add the odd major 6th and major 7th and sound hip af.

What happens if you put a A natural minor over an E7 say? Well you get an E7b9#9b13 sound. Which is pretty altered actually. The only note missing here is the b5. You can hear that. It's in the melody of Segment for example. Or Night in Tunisia. But this note is very dark and isn't used all the time.

[GuyBoden]

You guys can really track all this while playing over 2 bars? Seems like an awful lot of processing for something that fits completely in the D- (F major) pitch collection.

It seems a simpler system, because Chord Scale Theory has all the chord tones, arps etc in each scale for each chord, but when CST was taught in my time, CST had no chromatic embellishment, no chromatic enclosures, no chromatic approach notes, I thought that this was one of it's biggest problems. Maybe it's changed.

Nowadays, I'm trying to learn and play all music by ear.

But, it's easy to let your fingers get faster than your ear.

[Tal_175]

A lot of people struggle when they first move to melodic minor based concepts for altered dominant and tonic minor chords in jazz. I certainly have. It's harder to create a variety of ideas in strict melodic minor that the ear can accept as easily as diatonic major based ideas.

It is tempting to treat the melodic minor scale as one is used to treating the major scale at first, but I think the melodic minor scale should be considered a looser scale. In fact it's called the ascending form in classical music. There are three minor scales that the minor key melodies and harmonies come from yet in jazz it's called the "jazz minor scale" which is misleading, I think.

[pamosmusic]

A lot of people struggle when they first move to melodic minor based concepts for altered dominant and tonic minor chords in jazz. I certainly have. It's harder to create a variety of ideas in strict melodic minor that the ear can accept as easily as diatonic major based ideas.

It is tempting to treat the melodic minor scale as one is used to treating the major scale at first, but I think the melodic minor scale should be considered a looser scale. In fact it's called the ascending form in classical music. There are three minor scales that the minor key melodies and harmonies come from yet in jazz it's called the "jazz minor scale" which is misleading, I think.

I think when I’m playing any scale I’m usually not thinking much about the pure scale and thinking more about pulling shapes and things out of it. So there are lovely major triad ideas that sound altered as hell when they’re placed correctly and imply that orientation of the scale.

So it might be easier to create sort of loosely consonant or logical melodies with a major scale, but that’s not really the goal anyway. I think creating actual interesting lines is the same process either way.

[ragman1]

and you can do all of that and it will sound 100% less cool than Grant Green soloing diatonically.

No, I wouldn't. Grant Green's useless.

[pamosmusic]

No, I wouldn't. Grant Green's useless.

Hehe. Out comes the troll.

[ragman1]

It's a joke, you twat.

Jerry Bergonzi’s Dorian bebop scale..... I have heard of it and it is a thing.

By the way, I googled 'Jerry Bergonzi's Dorian Bebop Scale' and got nothing. He does bebop scale lessons etc but it's just the usual fare. Are you sure it exists?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

It's a joke, you twat.



By the way, I googled 'Jerry Bergonzi's Dorian Bebop Scale' and got nothing. He does bebop scale lessons etc but it's just the usual fare. Are you sure it exists?

It's in one of his "Inside Improvisation Series" books IIRC. Would have to go to the library to tell you which volume.

[pamosmusic]

It's a joke, you twat.

Whew. Thank you so much for clarifying. I had no idea, though I’m sure you could tell based on the way I didn’t laugh and immediately launched into an earnest case for why Grant Green is better than some random message board poster.

Thats a load off.

By the way, I googled 'Jerry Bergonzi's Dorian Bebop Scale' and got nothing. He does bebop scale lessons etc but it's just the usual fare. Are you sure it exists?

Yerp.

His formulation is a half step between root and seventh, when available. When it’s not, a half step between the fifth and sixth.

[pamosmusic]

It's in one of his "Inside Improvisation Series" books IIRC. Would have to go to the library to tell you which volume.

My Music Masterclass is where I got it. I got a few classes as a gift and forgot to discontinue it for …. um …. Several months.

[ragman1]

Anyhow, it's looking seriously like the old saga, you can invent any old scale-u-like and it's fine coz it's *JAZZ*.

Fine by me :-)

[ragman1]

His formulation is a half step between root and seventh, when available. When it’s not, a half step between the fifth and sixth.

That's not 'his' formulation, that's the usual bebop thing. Anyway, I don't care because I don't think like that.

[pamosmusic]

That's not 'his' formulation, that's the usual bebop thing. Anyway, I don't care because I don't think like that.

Well it is “his.”

Which of course doesn’t mean it can’t be lots of other people’s formulation too.

How very late-capitalist of you, Ragman.

And if the formulation is so obvious, it’s a bit weird to ask if I’m sure it even exists.

[ragman1]

It's in one of his "Inside Improvisation Series" books IIRC. Would have to go to the library to tell you which volume.

I wish you would go. Fast! Today!

[ragman1]

How very late-capitalist of you, Ragman.

Naturally, that's me all over!

[Christian Miller]

It seems a simpler system, because Chord Scale Theory has all the chord tones, arps etc in each scale for each chord, but when CST was taught in my time, CST had no chromatic embellishment, no chromatic enclosures, no chromatic approach notes, I thought that this was one of it's biggest problems. Maybe it's changed.

Nowadays, I'm trying to learn and play all music by ear.

But, it's easy to let your fingers get faster than your ear.

Well i mean it’s cos chord scale theory is a theory of voicings not lines. If you follow it’s prescriptions for making nice chords, it works pretty well.

notes in a line can be part of a chord, but quite often they are not. Such as chromatic enclosures as you say.

You can systematise melodic minor modes simply as adding fancy notes or altering pitches in the prevailing tonality.

just add the E to a Dm7b5 and bosh, locrian #2*. Add a B to the C minor 6, bosh melodic minor.

Altered is harder because it’s the Weird Scale and does the resolving thing but I’d say Ab and Eb most commonly used fancy notes on G7 (they belong to Abm). Probably Bb too.

(Be sure to listen to how they sound which is easier with one note than a whole scale.)

*why is called that? The 2 is major with would be natural according to convention of every other chord symbol. If it was sharp it would be E#. Nonsense.

[Christian Miller]

Allan Holdsworth used the same 8 note scale, he called it some strange name.

But, it could be called a Dorian add Nat 7, this D-E-F-G-A-B-C-C#

Here's a pic of Allan Holdsworth with the scale:

You could do worse than use Allan’s ten as a scale syllabus. They are the main ones in jazz, including the two most immediately useful Barry Harris scales. (Although I’ve never knowingly used melodic minor #4)

Transcribing Allan at the moment. He uses the Barry harris added note rules hehe (I don’t know if he had a system for this …). Lot of bebop in his playing. He also plays bIIIo7 in a turnaround. Look at this lovely thing. You even get a bit of major-6 dim. Quite fun to play as well.



Anyway, I digress.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I wish you would go. Fast! Today!

1. It is not worth it. You are not really interested. You just like to troll today.

2. Your Google is obviously different from mine. This took me 5 sec

[GuyBoden]

just add the E to a Dm7b5 and bosh, locrian #2*. Add a B to the C minor 6, bosh melodic minor.

Altered is harder because it’s the Weird Scale and does the resolving thing but I’d say Ab and Eb most commonly used fancy notes on G7 (they belong to Abm). Probably Bb too.

(Be sure to listen to how they sound which is easier with one note than a whole scale.)

*why is called that? The 2 is major with would be natural according to convention of every other chord symbol. If it was sharp it would be E#. Nonsense.

Em7b5 would be E Locrian Nat 2 scale. mm mode 6
A7alt would be A Super Locrian scale. mm mode 7
Dmin6 would be D Melodic minor scale. mm mode 1.

Yes, I call it a Locrian Nat 2 scale.

Maybe, the Natural sign doesn't work in typing font and is automatically converted to a #.

Quote from JazzGuitar.be site:
The Melodic Minor Scale And Its Modes

"Here’s a list of the 7 modes of the melodic minor scale:

Melodic minor scale (aka jazz minor scale)
Dorian b2 (aka Phrygian #6)
Lydian augmented
Lydian dominant (aka overtone scale)
Mixolydian b6
Aeolian b5 (aka Locrian #2)
Altered scale (aka super Locrian)"


So, for a laugh, to make things simple or more confusing, I've renamed the Melodic Minor modes based on Major mode names.

C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B


Ionian b3 is C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B-C
Dorian b2 is D-Eb-F-G-A-B-C
Phrygian b1 is Eb-F-G-A-B-C-D
Lydian b7 is F-G-A-B-C-D-Eb
Mixolydian b6 is G-A-B-C-D-Eb-F
Aeolian b5 is A-B-C-D-Eb-F-G
Locrian b4 is B-C-D-Eb-F-G-A

Is that better?