Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[Christian Miller]

However - The thing is in the video I do a truncated Groovin' High lick on bar 8 of Stella ...



Transpose this to Fm (Dm7b5=Fm), Abm and Cm on the first three chords of Blue Bossa relating the first three notes to a minor chord shape (this fingering is the 'Am' shape), and what do you have?

[AllanAllen]

I never noticed how close the first bars of scrapple and goovin high are. This is going to be huge for me. Did my ears just get a little bigger?!?!

[Christian Miller]

I never noticed how close the first bars of scrapple and goovin high are. This is going to be huge for me. Did my ears just get a little bigger?!?!

Yes it's nuts, right? I hadn't;t noticed either till I made the video.

Also, notice they both start on an upbeat of 2, one with a fifth and one with a semitone. These are two great ways to dress up any scale or arpeggio and instantly make it sound like bebop.

Modally, they both fit into Tal175's idea of mixed dorian/melodic minor although I'm note sure I'd look at them that way.

[bako]

So within the minor family any of these notes are possible.

1 > b3 > 5
7 is brighter the b7
6 is brighter than b6
2 is brighter than b2
5 is brighter than b5
3 is a leading tone to 4

What degree of tension desired?
Which notes are preceding the chord and what notes will follow?
Whether to maintain common tones or accentuate the differential between adjacent chords.

Or the question of how seriously to take a chord symbol? Do chromatics appear as part of chord symbol prime or are they generated via personal notions of passing chord structures.

[ragman1]

I don’t know man. You’re the one who said melodic minor was major with the root sharpened.

Am Dorian:

A B C D E F# G A (G maj)

Am melodic:

A B C D E F# G# A (G maj with # root)

Clumsy, I agree :-)

[alltunes]

Am Dorian:

A B C D E F# G A (G maj)

Am melodic:

A B C D E F# G# A (G maj with # root)

Clumsy, I agree :-)

Common way to ‘frame’ Dorian but I have yet to see MM framed this way. Interesting.

My limited MM world mostly focuses on MM as an altered scale.

In Mike Stern’s Altered Scales book he makes a point that everything should thought of as from the root.
Though Barry Greene often cites the other popular viewpoint….resolving dominant chord = MM 1/2 step up non resolving dominant chord = MM a fifth up. Emily Remler saw it this way too. Good enough for me too

[Tal_175]

So within the minor family any of these notes are possible.

1 > b3 > 5
7 is brighter the b7
6 is brighter than b6
2 is brighter than b2
5 is brighter than b5
3 is a leading tone to 4

What degree of tension desired?
Which notes are preceding the chord and what notes will follow?
Whether to maintain common tones or accentuate the differential between adjacent chords.

Or the question of how seriously to take a chord symbol? Do chromatics appear as part of chord symbol prime or are they generated via personal notions of passing chord structures.

The question in the OP would only probably make sense to people who approach the minor ii V i with a certain chord scale view.

In this view, the chord scales for all the chords can come from the Melodic Minor:

- ii minor7b5: Locrian #9. The b9 in the plain Locrian is perceived as a harsh note.
- V7alt: Altered scale
- i minor6: Melodic minor

Alternatively, perhaps a more caveman like approach would be to use Dorian based chord scales for all the chords:
- ii minor7b5: Locrian. If your line is good b9 would bother no one.
- V7alt: The tritone's Dorian minor. It's like the altered scale but instead of the root of the V you get (the controversial) leading note. (For G7alt, you get F# and Ab, no G).
- i minor6: Dorian. You get the 7th which may clash against the 6th.

Let's call this the Dorian approach (some would view the same relationships from the related dominant point of view).


So, let's say for ii minor7b5, one would work on Locrian #9 based vocabulary if they adopt the MM approach whereas another person may go with the Dorian approach and use a vocabulary based on dorian or dominant in the same family over the chord. The conceptual organization of these vocabulary can be quite disjoint and may also involve different fretboard references, scale forms etc. But in the end the resulting lines are interchangeable and work well in either case. So the question is then, wouldn't it make sense to combine them under the same mental organization and fretboard references as opposed to viewing them as two separate scalar ecosystems?

[pamosmusic]

You guys can really track all this while playing over 2 bars? Seems like an awful lot of processing for something that fits completely in the D- (F major) pitch collection.

while playing? No. While practicing? Sure.

The aim of practicing being to narrow the delta between what I can do with planning and what I can do on the fly.

[ragman1]

Common way to ‘frame’ Dorian but I have yet to see MM framed this way. Interesting.

That's one way of putting it :-)

It's okay, there was a reason for putting it that way. Don't follow it!

My limited MM world mostly focuses on MM as an altered scale.

In Mike Stern’s Altered Scales book he makes a point that everything should thought of as from the root.
Though Barry Greene often cites the other popular viewpoint…resolving dominant chord = MM 1/2 step up non resolving dominant chord = MM a fifth up. Emily Remler saw it this way too. Good enough for me too

Most people do that. Non-resolving doms (G7 - C7) normally take a lyd dom (D MM which, from root G, is G lyd dom) and a resolving one (G7 - C) takes the Ab MM which, from the G root, is G alt. But it's not set in stone. You can also use F MM over the G7 to C. That's quite nice too.

[pamosmusic]

This is good to hear, no way I can track all that. It's hard enough for me to remember the chord names. Someone asked me the changes to Blue Bossa at a jam while we were playing it. I can play the thing in my sleep by now, but telling them the changes I was lost. The song has gone from a series of chord names to a sound in my head. Really hard for me to describe, it was also weird to experience.

My point is, I don't think I have the capacity to track the changes chords, the chord I can use over it and the scale and what mode to use....

Yeah that’s the goal I think! You want that place when you’re playing. So you practice the complicated stuff so that when you’re playing, maybe 3% of it comes out without you worrying about it all

[ragman1]

OK, I'll show you. In the beginning there was this:

Tonic Minor: Common scale choices are Melodic Minor and Dorian but in reality it's neither. The actual scale that's used in solos is the 8 note scale that is Dorian + the leading note.

If A minor is the tonic, which key or mode does it represent? Tunes can be written in keys and also modes. Is 'So What' written in C major or D Dorian? Apparently D Dorian. I wrote a whole tune in Locrian once.

So if you're going to conflate two scales with different origins:

1) A Dorian (from G major) and
2) A melodic minor (from C major -> A natural minor -> A harmonic minor -> A melodic minor)

to produce this mythical scale that I've never heard of ('the actual scale used in solos') then they should at least have logically connected origins.

What is this 'actual scale'? I've used all these notes as links or passing notes myself over Am, tonic or otherwise. But an actual scale spelled ABCDEF#GG# I've never heard of. Has anyone?

It's invented. Hence my objections. If you just want to say some players mix their notes up a bit, that's fine, they certainly do. But let's not employ dubious theory to try to validate what probably only amounts to imaginative improvisation on the fly.

And of course there are 8-note scales. W/H and H/W diminished scales are octatonic. However, they aren't spelled like the one above.

A W/H: A B C D Eb F F# G#

A H/W: A Bb C Db Eb E F# G

Any deeper theory than that, and it exists, most of it in the classical world, is beyond my knowledge but as far as I know diminished scales aren't used for tonic chords. Not even classically. Maybe in jazz for color.

[pamosmusic]

to produce this mythical scale that I've never heard of ('the actual scale used in solos') then they should at least have logically connected origins.

I mean … should they though?

And wouldn’t their logically connected origins be the A minor chord?

What is this 'actual scale'? I've used all these notes as links or passing notes myself over Am, tonic or otherwise. But an actual scale spelled ABCDEF#GG# I've never heard of. Has anyone?

Also yes. A B C D E F# G G# A

Jerry Bergonzi’s Dorian bebop scale. Is it what Tal’s talking about? No. But I have heard of it and it is a thing.

It's invented.

Theory is all made up.

[ragman1]

Thanks for replying. Hope for us yet :-)

And wouldn’t their logically connected origins be the A minor chord?

No, because chords are built from scales, not the other way round. The common origin would be the scale/mode, not the chord.

Also yes. A B C D E F# G G# A

Jerry Bergonzi’s Dorian bebop scale. Is it what Tal’s talking about? No. But I have heard of it and it is a thing.

You better ask Tal, it's his idea unless he borrowed it from Bergonzi. In any case, if it is an extended Dorian then over Am that would be a G maj scale with a natural root and a #root in it. Or maybe that's a b2...

Theory is all made up.

True, but it's been 'made up' to provide us with the whole of Western music. Not bad for made up stuff, what?

[pamosmusic]

I have no real dog in this fight.

[rpjazzguitar]

I mean … should they though?

Also yes. A B C D E F# G G# A

Theory is all made up.

That's 8 notes with four half steps in a row. But, from another perspective it's a great scale.

From the point of view of Am, it has R 2 b3 4 and 5 -- the basic elements of four common minor scales. And, then it has both 7ths and one of the 6ths. Too bad it doesn't also have an F. Then it would have all the notes of the four common minor scales.

The only notes missing would be the major 3rd, #11 and b9. Two of those don't usually work as minor chord components.

At that point, the theory would implode slightly and you'd be using your ear to figure out which 6 and 7 you're going to play.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Maybe we should introduce that for meandering threads like this as well: When I look at live news updates of recent events, e.g. at the websites of Haaretz or Al Jazeera ATM, there is a recap of the events of the actual day from time to time.

While there are many really interesting bits about the use of minor here, it gets more and more confused and confusing.

And yes, Lord, I have been guilty of drifting off-topic in threads and not really reading other's posts properly as well ...

[princeplanet]

As a side note regarding melodic minor on the b9 of a dominant/altered scale:

There is always this discussion if the altered scale should be considered separate from melodic minor. I saw a video recently by a young British sax player who analyzed Solos by Dexter and Cannonball and said that they were using minor language on the b9 of a dominant for altered sounds (Can't find the link ATM). I experimented with this and I have to say it is true (at least for my taste): If a line sounds good in Ab minor it will create a nice altered sound on a G7. It will sound much better and more logical than if you were connecting notes of the altered scale arbitrarily (which might lead to the same result by random of course). As I said: matter of my blues based taste. Try it out.

Sooner or later everyone discovers this, but if you convert the same notes to be thought of as the m7b5 from the b7 of the Dom it may be easier to "find" in the heat of the moment. But for me, what's easier still is to see all alt Dom as simply the rootless 9th chord a semitone up from the tonic.

G7alt

Ab B Eb F - Abm6

F Ab B Eb - Fm7b5

F Ab B Eb - rootless Db9


As for MM usage, I stopped playing MM scales years ago when I realised I liked my lines better when I simply embellished (diatonic and chromatic) the important alt chord tones (ie, 3rd, b7th, b9th and b13th). Am I missing any "juice" by not including the b3, the b5 and the Root? Well no, because they all appear as added notes via all the ways I like to embellish the more important tones.

If anyone reading this is new to the whole "use MM for Alt Dom" thing, remember that everyone of your favourite players handles alt Dom differently, and that may or may not involve thinking in terms of MM. You can sound like a complete player in any Jazz sub genre without ever practicing a single MM scale.

Happy to invite comments from those that may disagree.

[rpjazzguitar]

Or is it a way to organize emergent elements in solos that involves the use of an additional note. A note that doesn't exist in the major scale. In other words are we really talking about an eight note scale like the bebop scale or Barry Harris sixth diminished scales instead of two separate scales (major and melodic minor)?

That appears to be the case if we look at the three most common uses of the Melodic Minor scale in jazz:

- Tonic Minor: Common scale choices are Melodic Minor and Dorian but in reality it's neither. The actual scale that's used in solos is the 8 note scale that is Dorian + the leading note.

- Half Diminished: The common scale choices are Locrian and Locrian #9 (I prefer natural 9 but my keyboard doesn't have the "natural" notation character). Again the actual scale used in solos has 8 notes that has both the b9 and natural 9. You can have both these notes in one line.

- Altered Dominant: The common scale choices are the Altered Scale and tritone Dominant scale. The difference is again one note Lydian dominant or dominant (from the point of view of the tritone), but again it's an added note rather than being an exclusive choice.

So, is it better to view these note choices as one eight note scale rather than two distinct scales? Moreover this seems to apply to both solos and moving chord voicings used in comping.

Consider 4 common minor scales: Aeolean, Dorian, Melodic and Harmonic (Phrygian doesn't enter in this post).

They each have the same 5 notes in common. R 2 b3 4 5.

There are two notes left, bearing in mind that they each have a total of 7 notes.

That means there are four combinations. b6 b7, b6 nat7, 6 b7, and 6 nat7.

That's Aeolean, Harmonic, Dorian and Melodic, respectively.

So, you're playing over a minor chord. You can pick the fifth and sixth that you want. Seems like this shouldn't be too difficult by ear.

[pamosmusic]

That's 8 notes with four half steps in a row. But, from another perspective it's a great scale.

From the point of view of Am, it has R 2 b3 4 and 5 -- the basic elements of four common minor scales. And, then it has both 7ths and one of the 6ths. Too bad it doesn't also have an F. Then it would have all the notes of the four common minor scales.

The only notes missing would be the major 3rd, #11 and b9. Two of those don't usually work as minor chord components.

At that point, the theory would implode slightly and you'd be using your ear to figure out which 6 and 7 you're going to play.

Yeah I was being a bit of an arse (as Christian would say).

It’s a bebop scale so the point of the one i cited is the rhythmic quality.

[ragman1]

If anyone reading this is new to the whole "use MM for Alt Dom" thing, remember that everyone of your favourite players handles alt Dom differently, and that may or may not involve thinking in terms of MM. You can sound like a complete player in any Jazz sub genre without ever practicing a single MM scale.

Happy to invite comments from those that may disagree.

Well, never mind 'favorite players', I do use the MM. I also use blues stuff, tension notes, whole-tone lines, sub arps, all sorts, even subs of subs! Sometimes it's fun just to play some random nonsense because it's nice when it stops

But I think I'd miss the MM if it wasn't there.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] Sometimes it's fun just to play some random nonsense because it's nice when it stops [...]

This is called harmolodic minor.

[ragman1]

I was just playing over Summertime and watching what I was doing. Quite interesting, I was using F# and F natural and G# and G natural all the time, naturally. without thinking. Nothing to do with 'what scale or mode, etc, etc'.

You can hear it if you like. I know why, because although the Am6 and Bm6 have F#'s in them there's also the Dm and E7alt as well as the CM7 bit which involve F natural . So it didn't matter. If you know it's there, it's there. It's all a mixture and doesn't clash.

[PMB]

Yes it's nuts, right? I hadn't;t noticed either till I made the video.

Also, notice they both start on an upbeat of 2, one with a fifth and one with a semitone. These are two great ways to dress up any scale or arpeggio and instantly make it sound like bebop.

Modally, they both fit into Tal175's idea of mixed dorian/melodic minor although I'm note sure I'd look at them that way.

...and then there's the bridge of Crazeology where the arpeggio is around the 1st rather than 2nd inversion:

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I was just playing over Summertime and watching what I was doing. Quite interesting, I was using F# and F natural and G# and G natural all the time, naturally. without thinking. Nothing to do with 'what scale or mode, etc, etc'.

You can hear it if you like. I know why, because although the Am6 and Bm6 have F#'s in them there's also the Dm and E7alt as well as the CM7 bit which involve F natural . So it didn't matter. If you know it's there, it's there. It's all a mixture and doesn't clash.

If you were relating to the mentioning of Summertime/Four On Six above: You were obviously using something closer to Gershwin's original. Probably since the Cannonball/Miles version not many people use the half-bar alternating Am6 Bm6 (=E9/B) parts any more. (Unfortunately I have to say. Also not those counter melodies after "And the cotton is high.").

[ragman1]

If you were relating to the mentioning of Summertime/Four On Six above: You were obviously using something closer to Gershwin's original. Probably since the Cannonball/Miles version not many people use the half-bar alternating Am6 Bm6 (=E9/B) parts any more. (Unfortunately I have to say. Also not those counter melodies after "And the cotton is high.").

I just bang it out the way I always do it. If you say that's nearer the original then so be it. I've seen versions that didn't do the half-bars and changed the m6 sound to m7. I always thought they lacked something in terms of mood and movement. I certainly didn't copy Miles' version. Or use the counter-melodies.