Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[Tal_175]

Come to think of it the the title should have been "Is the jazz minor scale really a thing in jazz?". The actual melodic minor scale already contains the 7th as well as the b6th if you consider both ascending and descending lines. So one could analyze lines that contain these notes in minor contexts as melodic minor already.

[Tal_175]

By that I mean you can already analyze many of the "Dorian bebop" lines as melodic minor from the classical point of view.

[Christian Miller]

Come to think of it the the title should have been "Is the jazz minor scale really a thing in jazz?”.

To which the answer remains, yes it is.

It’s even a thing in classical music, for instance in the music of Bach, as I posted above.

[Christian Miller]

it is admittedly a weird one because many older musicians didn’t know what this sound was called, and yet it pops up.

I don’t think it’s the number one thing that makes jazz sound like jazz, or the thing we should prioritise with students new to jazz, but it certainly is ‘a thing’ even in the pre war music.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t think you’re a Barry Harris hard-liner. I just think you’re occasionally a theory troll. Only occasionally.

True, all though not that flavour. Tbh the people who seem to want to lecture on the nicities of Barry Harris terminology and so on annoy me a bit these days.

I’ll going to use the term arpeggio the way everyone understands it for example, not specifically to refer to a triad with an extra note at the octave. At least when I’m teaching general students.

[pamosmusic]

True, all though not that flavour. Tbh the people who seem to want to lecture on the nicities of Barry Harris terminology and so on annoy me a bit these days.

I’ll going to use the term arpeggio the way everyone understands it for example, not specifically to refer to a triad with an extra note at the octave. At least when I’m teaching general students.

A pragmatist.

[ragman1]

Oh yeah, I get that. But I\d assumed you were counting from the root of the melodic minor, not the root of the dominant half a step down. It all makes sense now, including the tritone's minor bit.

You probably won't listen to me but I'll try anyway. All this cerebral theory stuff is great for exams. You'll be a professor in no time and amaze your friends.

But in real life it's pointless. It will not help you make nice altered sounds on your guitar when you come to playing a tune. And as far as I'm concerned that's all that counts.

You know the melodic minor over your dominant chord, i.e. Ab mel m over G7. So play it. You don't run up and down like a program, it doesn't make for good music. You just need to keep the shape in your mind and play some notes - bearing in mind that it has resolve to the next chord, usually the major or minor one chord. It's that simple.

Which means you have to see the shape or pattern very clearly in your mind. If you're thinking Ab mel m you have to be able to go for it without hesitation and use it. You don't need to play the whole thing, just a few notes will do it. And hit the resolve note. That's all you need to do.

I wish people would see this very simple thing. It's not difficult and it's certainly not a 'problem'. We make everything a problem because we're too cerebral, too analytical, too brain-oriented, not simple.

--------------------

Incidentally, this triad thing. Very interesting, triads of Ab mel m. (I'm NOT having a go at Christian, I'm just borrowing his quote).

Ab melodic minor on G7

For example, triads
G7 —> Abm, Bbm, C+, Db, Eb, Fo, Go

It's NOT just a question of thinking 'I can play Bbm instead of Ab mel m'. If you play Bbm you'll probably play Bb C Db Eb. But that's not Ab mel m. The notes of Ab mel over Bbm are Bb B Db Eb. There's no C in it and a natural B. So it's not so simple.

Or take C+. What's that, C wholetone? That would be, from root G... except there isn't one, it's Ab. So, from Ab, it's Ab Bb C D E F#. Which is not Ab mel m or anything like it.

So you may as well stick to Ab mel m from the start. Like I said, just know the shape/pattern and play from it. Not play it up and down but play from it. You may not be that good at the start but you'll learn how it goes fast enough.

Up to you.

[pamosmusic]

You probably won't listen to me but I'll try anyway. All this cerebral theory stuff is great for exams. You'll be a professor in no time and amaze your friends.

But in real life it's pointless. It will not help you make nice altered sounds on your guitar when you come to playing a tune. And as far as I'm concerned that's all that counts.

You know the melodic minor over your dominant chord, i.e. Ab mel m over G7. So play it. You don't run up and down like a program, it doesn't make for good music. You just need to keep the shape in your mind and play some notes - bearing in mind that it has resolve to the next chord, usually the major or minor one chord. It's that simple.

Which means you have to see the shape or pattern very clearly in your mind. If you're thinking Ab mel m you have to be able to go for it without hesitation and use it. You don't need to play the whole thing, just a few notes will do it. And hit the resolve note. That's all you need to do.

I wish people would see this very simple thing. It's not difficult and it's certainly not a 'problem'. We make everything a problem because we're too cerebral, too analytical, too brain-oriented, not simple.

--------------------

Incidentally, this triad thing. Very interesting, triads of Ab mel m. (I'm NOT having a go at Christian, I'm just borrowing his quote).



It's NOT just a question of thinking 'I can play Bbm instead of Ab mel m'. If you play Bbm you'll probably play Bb C Db Eb. But that's not Ab mel m. The notes of Ab mel over Bbm are Bb B Db Eb. There's no C in it and a natural B. So it's not so simple.

Or take C+. What's that, C wholetone? That would be, from root G... except there isn't one, it's Ab. So, from Ab, it's Ab Bb C D E F#. Which is not Ab mel m or anything like it.

So you may as well stick to Ab mel m from the start. Like I said, just know the shape/pattern and play from it. Not play it up and down but play from it. You may not be that good at the start but you'll learn how it goes fast enough.

Up to you.

Ragman tends to mock theory as being to complicated and abstract and then proceed to simplify things in a way that makes them way more complicated and abstract.

The triads like you’re checking out at honestly the best possible application of theory in my opinion. You have to use your brain a bit, then experiment with triads to see which ones you like, pick your two favorites or something, and then at the end of the day instead of having to sift through the altered scale for all these dominant chords you just end up with “minor triad a half step up and augmented triad off the third” and you get your “altered scale sound”

[ragman1]

Ragman tends to mock theory as being to complicated and abstract and then proceed to simplify things in a way that makes them way more complicated and abstract.

Utter tosh. I don't mock theory, never have. But it's about what you can do, not what you 'know'. And to say playing the shape is way more complicated and abstract is complete nonsense. The pattern is there for the player to use. Simple.

The triads like you’re checking out at honestly the best possible application of theory in my opinion. You have to use your brain a bit, then experiment with triads to see which ones you like, pick your two favorites or something, and then at the end of the day instead of having to sift through the altered scale for all these dominant chords you just end up with “minor triad a half step up and augmented triad off the third” and you get your “altered scale sound”

So you've got a formula. First do this, then do this, then... Too silly. The pattern is there for the player to use. Simple.

sift through the altered scale for all these dominant chords

Uh? I never said that or anything like it. It's much, much easier than that.

[pamosmusic]

Utter tosh. I don't mock theory, never have. But it's about what you can do, not what you 'know'. And to say playing the shape is way more complicated and abstract is complete nonsense. The pattern is there for the player to use. Simple.

Sure and ask a jazz newbie if they can play an altered scale.

then ask a jazz newbie if they can play a minor triad.

makes the thing you *know* easier to *play*

[pamosmusic]

You probably won't listen to me but I'll try anyway. All this cerebral theory stuff is great for exams. You'll be a professor in no time and amaze your friends.

But in real life it's pointless.

Also … come on dude … “utter tosh.”

Id hate to hear you mock something then. Scorched earth!

[ragman1]

Sure and ask a jazz newbie if they can play an altered scale.

And they can. They can follow the pattern, play the notes, see how it sounds over a G7. Instant revelation.

then ask a jazz newbie if they can play a minor triad.

And of course they can because it's only three notes. But they look blank and say 'What am I supposed to do with that?'.

That's the problem, see. Theoretically, three notes must be easier than a whole pattern! But actually they wouldn't know what to do with just three notes. I know I wouldn't have. Three notes isn't enough, it's not a line, it's not music.

You need the basics first, then you can insert triads because you don't just play with three notes here and there, you fit them amongst other notes in a line - if you know how to use them. Like so:





And you don't teach that stuff to a newbie, Peter, as you know very well.

[pamosmusic]

l
And of course they can because it's only three notes. But they look blank and say 'What am I supposed to do with that?'.

Ragman, this is what we in the business would call a “teachable moment.” You answer them by giving them some things that they’re “supposed to do with that.” Enclosures, approach notes, passing notes. Whatever.

That's the problem, see. Theoretically, three notes must be easier than a whole pattern! But actually they wouldn't know what to do with just three notes. I know I wouldn't have. Three notes isn't enough, it's not a line, it's not music.

Fortunately, I’ve found that Internet Ragman not knowing what to do with triads does not necessarily preclude my students from knowing what to do with triads. So rest easy on that one.

You need the basics first, then you can insert triads because you don't just play with three notes here and there, you fit them amongst other notes in a line - if you know how to use them. Like so:

Duuuuuuuuude … look carefully at that D7 line. That is literally a B major triad, down and back. No ornamentation or passing notes or decoration of any kind. It is a perfect example of an upper structure triad. In this case a WH diminished one just like what I mentioned in my first response to Cliff. So this is a perfect example of exactly what you’re dismissing right here. The minor chord and major chord on either side are just seventh chord arpeggios, both 3-9 arpeggios which makes them conceptually related to the upper structures we were talking about anyway. And the only part that isn’t straight out of an arpeggio is the E in the last beat of the example.

There’s nothing here from an altered scale and nothing that markedly diverges from the kind of arpeggios Cliff was asking about earlier.

And you don't teach that stuff to a newbie, Peter, as you know very well.

I absolutely do. All the time.

[ragman1]

what you’re dismissing right here

I'm not dismissing triads, I use them myself. I'm saying learn the basics first, that's all, then you can embellish. But if you learn the embellishments first... that, to me, is mistaken. And I consider sticking a B maj arp over a D7 an embellishment, and an advanced one at that.

Once he's learned the B maj trick, what next? Lots of other tricks he sticks together? Learn the basic alt scale and you've got any number of ways to play it.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not dismissing triads, I use them myself. I'm saying learn the basics first, that's all, then you can embellish. But if you learn the embellishments first... that, to me, is mistaken. And I consider sticking a B maj arp over a D7 an embellishment, and an advanced one at that.

Once he's learned the B maj trick, what next? Lots of other tricks he sticks together? Learn the basic alt scale and you've got any number of ways to play it.

do your thing my man. You know best, obvs.

[pamosmusic]

Also that B major triad is from the symmetrical diminished scale, so I guess if that’s “basic” for you then you’re pretty doggone fancy. The triad is a little more basic from where I sit, but I’m wasting my time here, I suppose

[pauln]

My theory is the eventual internal representation of what is learned ceases to be much like the external theory objects representing what was learned - that is, as something becomes more internalized the attempt to self describe how you grasp it encounters the feeling that it no longer feels much like those things (notes, intervals, scale degrees, shapes, patterns, etc.) as if the theory had to be overcome for internalization to fully settle in. Then you just know you can do it.

[ragman1]

Also that B major triad is from the symmetrical diminished scale, so I guess if that’s “basic” for you then you’re pretty doggone fancy.

You've become confused. I said the basics was learning to use the alt scale, not the B maj triad trick or any others. The person who thinks using 3-note tricks is a short-cut to playing decent jazz lines is fooling themselves, much like the rockers who think all they need is pentatonics.

As I said before, you need to understand the basics first then embellish them with these little tricks. Used properly, I agree, tricks can be very effective but you need to lay a solid foundation first. Any teacher who pushes the tricks without the foundation is probably conning their students, if not themselves, and the students will realise that one day.

[ragman1]

My theory is the eventual internal representation of what is learned ceases to be much like the external theory objects representing what was learned - that is, as something becomes more internalized the attempt to self describe how you grasp it encounters the feeling that it no longer feels much like those things (notes, intervals, scale degrees, shapes, patterns, etc.) as if the theory had to be overcome for internalization to fully settle in. Then you just know you can do it.

Well, it was wordy but I think that's right.

[pamosmusic]

You've become confused. I said the basics was learning to use the alt scale, not the B maj triad trick or any others. The person who thinks using 3-note tricks is a short-cut to playing decent jazz lines is fooling themselves, much like the rockers who think all they need is pentatonics.

As I said before, you need to understand the basics first then embellish them with these little tricks. Used properly, I agree, tricks can be very effective but you need to lay a solid foundation first. Any teacher who pushes the tricks without the foundation is probably conning their students, if not themselves, and the students will realise that one day.

Oof.

[CliffR]

Follow-up questions:
Is the 'altered' sound something that is only heard in post-bop? I seem to remember reading that it's not really idiomatic to bebop.
If the 7th is *not* functioning as a dominant (I'm thinking the two bars of Eb7 starting at bar 13 of Out Of Nowhere) is the altered scale still an appropriate choice?

[pamosmusic]

Follow-up questions:
Is the 'altered' sound something that is only heard in post-bop? I seem to remember reading that it's not really idiomatic to bebop.
If the 7th is *not* functioning as a dominant (I'm thinking the two bars of Eb7 starting at bar 13 of Out Of Nowhere) is the altered scale still an appropriate choice?
I've been playing jazz for four years now. Am I really still a noob? I was hoping I may at least have reached level 2 by now

So this is sort of what I was talking about. Straight up altered scale stuff I guess is around in some bebop style things, but more commonly you see things like the tritone substitution floating around. So like Dm and Eb7 in Night in Tunisia. That has a similar effect to an altered dominant sound because that Eb7 comes from the A altered scale and an A7 would be the typical dominant choice for a Dm. Red Cross kind of has a similar thing going on.

So definitely some melodic minor ideas floating around but I’m not sure they were necessarily thought of that way. And often they have some passing notes and things, which I suppose is the original subject of this thread. So that is part of the reason it can be helpful to pull a few sounds out of that melodic minor scale to start working up vocabulary.

As for the Eb7 … Christian might have some input for this one too … I don’t have any hard and fast rule but usually when a dominant chord doesn’t resolve in the usual direction, the 7 or 7 sharp 11 sound works best, rather than altered or the flat 9 sort of thing or whatever. If a dominant chord is resolving to the ii iii or vi position (like the E7 or A7 in All of Me) I usually start with a 7b9 sort of thing or an altered kind of vibe** If it resolves to IV or V I usually start with 9 and 13. If it resolves to I you get the kitchen sink. But those aren’t rules unless someone else has heard them that way (?) … they’re just starting places I jump to from the way stuff has sounded best in my experience.

*** I don’t usually think of them as altered and harmonic minor, because I usually think about stuff in the terms you described earlier with triads and chords and stuff, but that is the end result

[pamosmusic]

Exceptions abound for those starting places, but if I’m working on a new tune that’s where I start.

For example … in Out of Nowhere, the E7 in bar 7-8 is of course a regular E9 chord, since it’s coming from the Bmin (no flat fifth) and has an F# in the melody. The other sounds work great when you’re improvising, depending on the line, but obviously the tune makes the E9 the book choice there. Which is cool.

[CliffR]

Many thanks!

[pamosmusic]

Oh … and obvious caveat based on the Out of Nowhere example.

Use the chords you hear in conjunction with the melody.

Out of nowhere has an Eb7 or Bbm6 there and has an A natural in the melody. So that Eb7 would be an Eb7#11 … what the melody gives you or the context of the tune gives you would trump any rule or intuition you might have.