Diminished function …. I wish I knew ….

[Christian Miller]

tbh these days I’d be more interested in playing it on the piano and observing the voice movement than getting too much into the weeds on functional harmony.

That bluesy Ab-A on Bo7 F/C is characteristic for example. I think if this as a ‘blues’ prog in jazz (even though you can probably find the same voice leading in the classical canon.)

Also - gospel harmony tends to weaken the leading tone in cadences. We stick around on F which is why we have the C11 chord. This means we don’t have the typical F-E-F line you get in European music. The dominant remains suspended.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

the tune is gospel flavored

Dr Billy Taylor - a jazz educator had a TV show on an indy channel in NY that brought me to the music

some time he would show how and why the ear likes sounds created by chords and melodic lines

If the sheet music that ragman posted is not to your liking..there are many others on line to see

the Bdim chord could function as a passing chord if the F/C is voiced this way followed by A7/C# and then Dmin7
as this is the sheet music version Rag posted

Dr. Billy Taylor's mentor was Art Tatum, he was not just "a jazz educator with a TV show". His first bigger job was the Ben Webster Quartet, then he became the house pianist of Birdland and played with all the greats.

[Christian Miller]

Re. the Bo, I think pingu really wanted to know why it works, if I read him right.

I don't think that type of thing is to be encouraged. Presuming you want to get around to playing music and not just posting about it on JGO haha.

@pingu thing is - it's a module. You see it in a million tunes. Be on the look out for it, and practice it.

The blues works nicely here BTW.

[pamosmusic]

I don't think that type of thing is to be encouraged. Presuming you want to get around to playing music and not just posting about it on JGO haha.

@pingu thing is - it's a module. You see it in a million tunes. Be on the look out for it, and practice it.

The blues works nicely here BTW.

For what it’s worth too, I usually take “it voiceleads” as the main reason why a thing works anyway.

[pingu]

1287516[/URL]]I don't think that type of thing is to be encouraged. Presuming you want to get around to playing music and not just posting about it on JGO haha.

@pingu thing is - it's a module. You see it in a million tunes. Be on the look out for it, and practice it.

The blues works nicely here BTW.

Yes I do , gigs ....

for me it’s three modules

In the tune example I used ....
For me there are three distinct used of Diminished chords
going on in that tune

1 bar 12. Fo to F (I now call it an Auxiliary Dim 1 chord
this is great , and will help me spot them/use them in the wild)

2 bar 13 C#o to Dm (I call it a 'leading' Dim chord)
and can be thought of as a sub for the destination chords V(b9)

(I already knew this diminished usage , 4 Dom(b9) chords a minor third apart etc etc)

3 bar 14 Bo to F ( technically in inversion of number 1 above)
(But I now hear it more as a blues cliche #4 chord)

The above may not be totally technically correct
But it works for me in the real world

Great stuff
Thanks all
I don't need any more help for now
In fact I have plenty to think about right there !

my version of the chord chart

[Chris236]

Re. the Bo, I think pingu really wanted to know why it works, if I read him right. We're quite good at slapping labels on it rather than explaining why it works audibly, as it were. So far there have been multiple labels for it. Pingu says he like 'Auxillary 1' but I have to say that means nothing to me. Personally, I'd just call it what it is, the #IV diminished. Each to their own though, I suppose!

But as to why it works, I rather think the simple solution is that it sounds nice. It glides up very nicely to the I chord, especially when it's played as a first inversion, i.e. F/C.

The other answer is because of its easy resolutions. B>C, F>F, Ab>A, D>C (or D>D as in F6 or D>E as in FM7).

There are other good explanations. Bo could be seen as an E7b9 and the F as a variant of Am7, although I'm wary of that one.

Another is that Bo7 is the 7th degree (leading) chord of F minor, so there's a modal interchange when the Fm is replaced with F major.

B, of course, is also the tritone of F but I'm not sure what the relevance of that is... and so on.

Personally I just play it and I'm very glad someone thought of doing it

Auxiliary 1 chord just means it’s another possible 1 chord…. Through modal interchange. Bo that isn’t moving to C7 or F/C fits into that category you might say. What makes it work? The pull of the B and Ab moving up to C and A.

[Tal_175]

Re. the Bo, I think pingu really wanted to know why it works, if I read him right. We're quite good at slapping labels on it rather than explaining why it works audibly, as it were. So far there have been multiple labels for it. Pingu says he like 'Auxillary 1' but I have to say that means nothing to me. Personally, I'd just call it what it is, the #IV diminished. Each to their own though, I suppose!

Pingu's progression is not an auxillary one chord. Auxillary one and #IV diminished are different applications of diminished even though they are just inversions. There are many posts above that explain why it works as much as one can explains such things with the tools of diatonic music theory.

[Chris236]

Pingu's progression is not an auxillary one chord. Auxillary one and #IV diminished are different applications of diminished even though they are just inversions. There are many posts above that explain why it works as much as one can explains such things with the tools of diatonic music theory.

depends. We usually analyze diminished chords with regards to their bass motion. In this case the Bo’s root doesn’t go where you expect it to(assuming we’re resolving to F in root position). That said the effect is pretty much the same as an auxiliary 1 chord.

[Tal_175]

depends. We usually analyze diminished chords with regards to their bass motion. In this case the Bo’s root doesn’t go where you expect it to(assuming we’re resolving to F in root position). That said the effect is pretty much the same as an auxiliary 1 chord.

Nah, I don't buy it. Auxiliary diminished typically comes after a cadence. If someone showed me that progression on a piece of paper and asked me to play it, the most reasonable approach in my opinion would be to treat it as a #IV diminished where the F/C is implied. None of the chords indicate voicings afterall.
If you believe that the auxiliary diminished is a more reasonable explanation of that progression, then we'll just agree to disagree. Because I honestly don't think many people who are experienced in diminished harmony would see it that way in that progression.

[Chris236]

Nah, I don't buy it. Auxiliary diminished typically comes after a cadence. If someone showed me that progression on a piece of paper and asked me to play it, the most reasonable approach in my opinion would be to treat it as a #IV diminished where the F/C is implied. None of the chords indicate voicings afterall.
If you believe that the auxiliary diminished is a more reasonable explanation of that progression, then we'll just agree to disagree. Because I honestly don't think many people who are experienced in diminished harmony would see it that way in that progression.

lol, suit yourself

[Tal_175]

See? Not even you lot are sure what it means!

oops :-)

I think most people who read this thread in its entirety will have a pretty good idea what it means.

[Chris236]

I think most people who read this thread in its entirety will have a pretty good idea what it means.

I sure hope so, but my confidence is waning frankly.

[Tal_175]

I sure hope so, but my confidence is waning frankly.

I don't believe it. Your confidence always seems to stay at 100% no matter what happens.

[pamosmusic]

I mean forget assuming it’s F/C … listening to Nina Simone (and Billy Taylor and Derek Trucks) it’s definitely a fifth in the bass of the I chord after that sharp iv diminished. As far as bass motion goes I’m hearing this in the last four:

F/C C#o - Dm Bo - F/C C - F etc

So in both cases it seems pretty clear that the Bo is going to an F/C. Also a leading tone diminished for that Dm. Though in that case the A7b9 is kind of six of one, half dozen of the other.

(caveat … I don’t have perfect pitch and am not sitting at a piano so they might be in some other key.)

(additional caveat … this is based on quick listening to the first chorus or two of each. Those diminished chords are slippery and bass motion might be different somewhere else.)

[Tal_175]

tbh these days I’d be more interested in playing it on the piano and observing the voice movement than getting too much into the weeds on functional harmony.

I find that working on the voice leading on guitar is a great way of working on comping and chord voices. It think it's always possible to find voice leading solutions on guitar that makes the movement transparent.

[Chris236]

I mean forget assuming it’s F/C … listening to Nina Simone (and Billy Taylor and Derek Trucks) it’s definitely a fifth in the bass of the I chord after that sharp iv diminished. As far as bass motion goes I’m hearing this in the last four:

F/C C#o - Dm Bo - F/C C - F etc

So in both cases it seems pretty clear that the Bo is going to an F/C. Also a leading tone diminished for that Dm. Though in that case the A7b9 is kind of six of one, half dozen of the other.

(caveat … I don’t have perfect pitch and am not sitting at a piano so they might be in some other key.)

If F/C in the bass, yes #IVo - even if not, quite possibly, as I mentioned in the second post in the thread, because our ears tend to fill in the blanks with what they expect. That said the effect is quite similar to an Aux 1 chord.

now this is definitely splitting hairs .

[Tal_175]

Btw, the effect is not similar to auxiliary diminished chord at all. Auxiliary diminished chord typically comes on a strong beat. The intended effect is to surprise the listener who expects the tonic chord at the end of a cadence.

The effect of auxiliary is similar to ending a major tune on bII Major (#11) and then (optionally) resolving that with the actual I chord.

In this progression Bo is on a weak beat resolving to the I chord. If there is any point in going out of one's way to name a harmonic device as "auxiliary diminished" then one shouldn't confuse it with #IV diminished. They describe different situations.

[Reg]

Just to make it interesting....

Edim7 has 2 tritones, which creates options of 4 different 7th chords

E Bb.. can be C7 or Gb7

G Db,, can be Eb7 or A7

Which opens a ton of more harmonic options LOL

[pamosmusic]

Btw, the effect is not similar to auxiliary diminished chord at all. Auxiliary diminished chord typically comes on a strong beat. The intended effect is to surprise the listener who expects the tonic chord at the end of a cadence.

The effect of auxiliary is similar to ending a major tune on bII Major (#11) and then (optionally) resolving that with the actual I chord.

In this progression Bo is on a weak beat resolving to the I chord. If there is any point in going out of one's way to name a harmonic device as "auxiliary diminished" then one shouldn't confuse it with #IV diminished. They describe different situations.

No idea the proper name for it, but it’s also pretty common to use a diminished chord to embellish a static major chord. Like F major - F diminished (usually fully dim seventh) - F major. Pretty common in big band arranging and old American songbook tunes.

Not really what’s going on here, but there’s also not always a clean name for everything going on.

[Chris236]

No idea the proper name for it, but it’s also pretty common to use a diminished chord to embellish a static major chord. Like F major - F diminished (usually fully dim seventh) - F major. Pretty common in big band arranging and old American songbook tunes.

Not really what’s going on here, but there’s also not always a clean name for everything going on.

Right. That’s what’s more traditionally known as an auxiliary Io7 chord to be sure. But as you said earlier, and I liked it, they can be a little slippery with lots of variables playing into the final result.

[Chris236]

You know, technically and/or actually, an auxiliary chord is one with the same root as the chord it resolves to. So:

Co - C6 is auxiliary. So is this:

Go - G7.

However, is this one?

F#o - C6/G

Apparently not... Over to you.

context matters but:

F#o moving to C/G would most likely be #IVo if in the key of C.

in the key of G, Go7 going to G7 would be an auxiliary chord….in fact both would!

[Chris236]

Obviously.



Why?

Modal interchange

[mr. beaumont]

I played with gospel groups for a few years, and those C11's are key...but they'd be called a Bb/C. Actually, everything would be named as a slash chord, because it's all about that bass.

It's all about the bassline movement. You can hear it all get set up right in the intro of the Billy Taylor Trio recording.

[Chris236]

I said that earlier. It's one option. But is the dim auxiliary? That was the question. Apparently not because they don't share the same root.

You did? I thought I did?

G7 and Go7 don’t share the same root? What the..!!!

Seriously though, context is everything with chords in general, not just diminished.

[Chris236]

In the Trucks version they didn't know what they were doing. There was a very funny noise at that point :-)

Never heard it.