Diminished function …. I wish I knew ….

[pamosmusic]

I don’t like the pamo thing cos I think the bass line is important. When this progression appears in jazz tunes it tends to have this (3-4-)#4-5 bass line (OP example is a truncated example.)

but it’s a way of looking at it and it’s not ‘wrong’; the best theory is that you find helpful.

You get common tone dims (Fo7) as well but I regard them as different even though Bo7 is an inversion of Fo7.

Oh no I’m with you here. It’s a #iv dim. Leading tone diminished to the Big Five Chord, the way I hear it.

I was just talking about why I called that E dim (which was a wrong chord anyway) an inversion of the leading tone. All those diminished passing chords just sound derived from that one to me.

Theyre just so interesting and flexible and weird, I end up thinking about their relationship back to that target chord that way based on the parent diminished 7. But in this case the target chord seems pretty obviously to be the big five chord rather than a I chord.

[pingu]

Ok anyway ,

yes i do want names for these dim functions Ragman ,
i like to label things , it helps me
use them etc
(i appreciate that you are trying to help me in your way, the most recent
quote about Aux Dim being from
the same root was helpful , thanks)

I understand the point about the
rhythmic placement being important
in naming the Fo in bar 12 but I just
want the name for this function irrespective of rhythm ….
perhaps the name we can agree on is
”common tone dim”
see below

can I try to clarify again …. ?

there are three different functions going on here ….

1 bar 12 Fo (called either Auxiliary Dim or Common tone Dim )
we don’t have cocensus here

2 bar 13 C#o going to Dm (called Leading tone dim …. i think we’ve agreed on this name …. cool

3 bar 14 Bo (we’re calling this
#4 dim as typically in a blues)
We’ve agreed that name ….
praise the lord

just trying to get the names right here
any dissenters from this ?

[pingu]

1287743[/URL]]

You get common tone dims (Fo7) as well but I regard them as different even though Bo7 is an inversion of Fo7.

yes exactly …. see post #101
above ….
i got the term Common Tone Dim from you Christian

I hope it sticks ….

[pingu]

So i Corcovado bar 7

that Fo is a Common Tone Diminished yeah ?

[pingu]

In Love is a losing game
(nice tune)



that first Ebo is a leading tone Dim
right ?

[pingu]

Well, that appears to be that.

The Eo is a sub for A7b9 and makes a nice descending bass line.

The Bo - F is a #iv dim passing chord.

Unless it's inverted as an Fo in which case it's an auxiliary 1.

What we don't know is what a Do or an Abo is called since they're the other possible inversions... heh heh

for now
I’m dropping the term Aux Dim
because not everyone agrees with it

I’m going with ‘Common tone Dim’
off Christian instead
it seems less contentious ….

I kinda dreaded starting this thread ….
I knew it would be a bitch because Diminished chords are so ambiguous in use

still I has been very worthwhile
for me (with the occasional wind-up)

thanks to all who contributed

[mr. beaumont]

So I think I like leading tone dim for the C# and the Bdim is definitely a #4.

And I personally just have to think of the Edim as a slash chord.

[pingu]

1287764[/URL]]So I think I like leading tone dim for the C# and the Bdim is definitely a #4.

And I personally just have to think of the Edim as a slash chord.

Cool

out of interest
what would the slash chord be ?

[pingu]

Which is right, #iv dim or #IV dim? I tend to write it in upper case because diminisheds 'have a dominant function', or so I'm told.

i like lower case for minor chords
(chords with a minor third)

but either upper or lower case
is good in this situation (and unambiguous) because it’s Dim so everyone knows what to play there

[mr. beaumont]

Cool

out of interest
what would the slash chord be ?

So for the E diminished, that's an A7b9/E to me. Semantics really. But to me that removes any ambiguity.

[pamosmusic]

Out of curiosity, where are we getting the E diminished?

Last four bars I’m still only hearing recordings with

F/C - C#dim - Dm - Bdim - F/C - C7 - etc

[mr. beaumont]

Out of curiosity, where are we getting the E diminished?

Last four bars I’m still only hearing recordings with

F/C - C#dim - Dm - Bdim - F/C - C7 - etc

I'm pulling from the OP which I think was assuming the last few bars were like the beginning. And then from the Billy Taylor version, during the arco part.

I'm playing the last bars as F6/9, C#dim, Dm7, Bdim and then Bb6 Bdim (1 beat each) Bb/C (2 beats) back to F6.

Is anybody else hearing the Bb/C?

[pingu]

1287783[/URL]]I'm pulling from the OP which I think was assuming the last few bars were like the beginning. And then from the Billy Taylor version, during the arco part.

I'm playing the last bars as F6/9, C#dim, Dm7, Bdim and then Bb6 Bdim (1 beat each) Bb/C (2 beats) back to F6.

Is anybody else hearing the Bb/C?

No I wasn’t assuming that the last four bars were like the begining

the C#dim = the Edim

leading Diminished to Dm …. good

and Mr B see’s it as A7(b9)
fair enough , same thing in function

and
Bb/C (or I write C11)
absolutely hearing it
all over “I wish I knew How”
crucial to that tune’s gospel feeling
(to me)

[pingu]

Jesus H Christ
I think we’ve found concensus !!

[mr. beaumont]

YAY!!!!

I do hear that C# strong in the bass at the end of the form, so I would not try and write that C#dim as a slash chord, I think C#dim is the best name for it.

[pingu]

1287788[/URL]]YAY!!!!

I do hear that C# strong in the bass at the end of the form, so I would not try and write that C#dim as a slash chord, I think C#dim is the best name for it.

me too

C# dim “ leading tone Dim” to Dm

[pingu]

Great , I’m done !

[mr. beaumont]

You wonder how long this conversation would have taken in person in a room with a piano.

[pamosmusic]

YAY!!!!

I do hear that C# strong in the bass at the end of the form, so I would not try and write that C#dim as a slash chord, I think C#dim is the best name for it.

Yeah Nina and Billy Taylor both had that as a C then C# then D for the D minor in those 13-14 measures. Which is an awesome sound.

I don’t really have a great ear for this kind of music, but Csus on that ending cadence for sure. Bb/C sounds about right to me?

[pamosmusic]

You wonder how long this conversation would have taken in person in a room with a piano.

Not as long as this.

[Christian Miller]

So i Corcovado bar 7

that Fo is a Common Tone Diminished yeah ?

yes. Although some also call it a cadential diminished I think? It’s a nice a way to dress up a ii V I

[bediles]

yes i do want names for these dim functions Ragman ,
i like to label things , it helps me
use them etc

I think I posted this a while back. Straight from my Jazz Theory text in college (i'd say 8 pages is within fair use).

Ultimately, I like the names based on root movement (only 3 of em and then the weird Bach one). You could have sub categories of them too (especially Aux dim) as Idim sounds a bit different than b3 (going to first inv I) or #4dim. But whatever you want to call them it's nice to at lease have a name that's not 'passing dim' for each of them.

[pamosmusic]

So i Corcovado bar 7

that Fo is a Common Tone Diminished yeah ?

This particular chord in this particular tune also happens to be maybe my favorite chord of all the chords to ever chord.

[rintincop]

i call the Corcovado thing embellishing the I with a I Diminished. I do it a lot on ballads and intros.

[Christian Miller]

i call the Corcovado thing embellishing the I with a I Diminished. I do it a lot on ballads and intros.

It could be considered an application of mode VI of harmonic minor….