Theory vs. playing by ear

[pamosmusic]

The whole point of the extensions is that they aren’t necessarily tense. Most/many are colour tones.

Not all extensions are colour tones and these get labelled fairly or unfairly ‘avoid notes’. These should really be the ones that are called tensions.

Jinx.

Oh. Avoid notes is probably the one I hate more than anything else.

So much.

[Christian Miller]

Wow. But there are so many dumb jazz terms!

I usually use “color notes,” but I can’t say I’m all that bothered by “tensions.”

Colour notes is fine, but color notes is unacceptable.

[Christian Miller]

I also dislike

- pretty much all of the mode/scale names except

Major
Minor
Lydian dominant (if we are going to insist on calling the Major #4 the Lydian, this is at least sensible.)
Altered

Why is mode V of melodic minor not called Dominant b6 OR mode IV called Mixolydian #4? It makes no sense??? Total inconsistency.

Dominant is the better name because you’ve named it by application.

- insisting we call a half diminished chord a m7b5. No reason other than it’s a pain to say and I have to say it. A LOT. Bring back the the theta sign as well. I liked that one.

- Line cliche. CESH is a little bit better.

[mr. beaumont]

I can't say tensions bothers me...tensions add...well...tension. Like a 7th chord wants to resolve, but a 7b9b13 wants to even more?

Avoid notes is a gear grinder for me too though.

[Christian Miller]

I can't say tensions bothers me...tensions add...well...tension. Like a 7th chord wants to resolve, but a 7b9b13 wants to even more?

Avoid notes is a gear grinder for me too though.

Some tensions are tense

Altered dominants don’t count most of the time. Except when you do some hip upper structure triad shenanigans or some such in which case they become colour tones….

[Tal_175]

There is a special place in hell for the term Locrian #2.
On an unrelated note, I think the term superlocrian is clever, except it's really sublocrian.

[Chris236]

There is a special place in hell for the term Locrian #2.
On an unrelated note, I think the term superlocrian is clever, except it's really sublocrian.

A useful one though….I use it constantly on the ii chord on both minor and major ii V’s. Maybe too much.

Also the ticket on -7b5 as a ‘1’ chord

[Tal_175]

A useful one though….I use it constantly on the ii chord on both minor and major ii V’s. Maybe too much.

Also the ticket on -7b5 as a ‘1’ chord

My only problem is calling it "sharp" 2.

[Chris236]

My only problem is calling it "sharp" 2.

I have more of an issue with the silly Greek names, than the numeric alterations. They’re a little embarrassing.

[pamosmusic]

I have more of an issue with the silly Greek names, than the numeric alterations. They’re a little embarrassing.

But how else do you propose we sound smart enough to justify our educations?

[Chris236]

I also dislike

- pretty much all of the mode/scale names except

Major
Minor
Lydian dominant (if we are going to insist on calling the Major #4 the Lydian, this is at least sensible.)
Altered

Why is mode V of melodic minor not called Dominant b6 OR mode IV called Mixolydian #4? It makes no sense??? Total inconsistency.

Dominant is the better name because you’ve named it by application.

- insisting we call a half diminished chord a m7b5. No reason other than it’s a pain to say and I have to say it. A LOT. Bring back the the theta sign as well. I liked that one.

- Line cliche. CESH is a little bit better.

here in the states the 4th mode of MM is usually called Lydian b7 and 5th Mixo b13.

While the #2 of “Locrian#2” may sound a little counterintuitive at least it stays true to the system!

[Chris236]

But how else do you propose we sound smart enough to justify our educations?

I think that’s my issue with it! I feel like I’m playing Dungeons and Dragons talking about chord scales.

[pamosmusic]

I think the thing I hate about the mode stuff is just that teachers get lazy and learners draw the (understandable) conclusion that they should be playing stepwise, scalar type stuff over changes.

When the reality is obviously way richer and more interesting than that. And stepwise scalar stuff without a lot of attention to detail is a real snooze.

As far as organizing and thinking that way, I think I use them for processing sounds and organizing stuff way more than I thought I would.

[pamosmusic]

There is a special place in hell for the term Locrian #2.
On an unrelated note, I think the term superlocrian is clever, except it's really sublocrian.

Yeah I love that. It’s this fancy Greek name and you come along to correct them about super vs sub and the Mode Naming People are like … no no no … we mean like super locrian. Like super man or something.

like … like …

MEGA LOCRIAN

[Chris236]

I think the thing I hate about the mode stuff is just that teachers get lazy and learners draw the (understandable) conclusion that they should be playing stepwise, scalar type stuff over changes.

When the reality is obviously way richer and more interesting than that. And stepwise scalar stuff without a lot of attention to detail is a real snooze.

As far as organizing and thinking that way, I think I use them for processing sounds and organizing stuff way more than I thought I would.

People have to walk before they can run of course but having students work on scales in intervals can definitely help as can a more vertical approach like triads or 7th chord arps.

What I find a larger issue is the necessary lack of tension when students are learning diatonic scales in diatonic context. It’s hard to learn to play ‘inside’ sometimes until a student has some freedom to go ‘outside’ in a controlled way in my experience —Another benefit of a more vertical approach is that having the chord tones under the student’s fingers easily lends itself to working with chromatic approach notes and gaining enough ‘outness’ to recognize what’s ‘in’.

it’s fun when you have a student both inspired enough and in the right place to work on this stuff - the progress can be aggressive and that’s neat to watch.

[pamosmusic]

People have to walk before they can run of course but having students work on scales in intervals can definitely help as can a more vertical approach like triads or 7th chord arps.

Apropos of nothing, I love this stuff so much. I have this sheet I scribbled out on a piece of printer paper with Do You Really Know That Scale? written at the top, and then everything like this I could think of.

(The “You” in question here is just me. I do not labor under the delusion that this maniacal piece of paper would be helpful to anyone else. Or even that helpful to me.)

The colo(u)rs come out a bit more when things are stacked too. That E pops over a Dm when it’s part of a structure like an arpeggio or a skip or something. When it’s a passing tone between the D and F, it doesn’t have the same impact. So the sound of the chord really comes out in all those cool patterns.

What I find a larger issue is the necessary lack of tension when students are learning diatonic scales in diatonic context. It’s hard to learn to play ‘inside’ sometimes until a student has some freedom to go ‘outside’ in a controlled way in my experience — Another benefit of a more vertical approach is that having the chord tones under the student’s fingers easily lends itself to working with chromatic approach notes and gaining enough ‘outness’ to recognize what’s ‘in’.

Ah yeah. So much of the language lives in those little chromatic embellishments too.

[pauln]

Yeah I love that. It’s this fancy Greek name and you come along to correct them about super vs sub and the Mode Naming People are like … no no no … we mean like super locrian. Like super man or something.

like … like …

MEGA LOCRIAN

As an aside stemming from "sub and super"...

The usual presentation of the degree names is like this:

Tonic
Supertonic
Mediant
Subdominant
Dominant
Submediant
Subtonic
Leading Tone

The Supertonic is under the Tonic?
The Subdominant is over the Dominant?
Why eight names for seven notes?
Is there a way to arrange these so the names are coherent?

First let's correct the apparent order with respect to pitch ascending

Leading Tone
Subtonic
Submediant
Dominant
Subdominant
Mediant
Supertonic
Tonic

Next, realize that the Subtonic is b7 by default, but called the Leading Tone if it is the natural 7, so Leading Tone is just an alternate name for the 7 - leave it out and just call it Subtonic, or Leading Tone if 7 is natural

Put the Tonic in the center and build out from there...

Start with the Tonic and place the Dominant a fifth above and the Subdominant a fifth below...

Dominant
Tonic
Subdominant

Now place the Mediant above and between the Tonic and Dominant, and the Submediant below and between the Tonic and the Subdominant...

Dominant
Mediant
Tonic
Submediant
Subdominant

Place the Supertonic above and between the Tonic and the Mediant
Place the Subtonic below and between the Tonic and the Submediant

Dominant
Mediant
Supertonic
Tonic
Subtonic
Submediant
Subdominant

The fully explicit named version would be

Superdominant
Supermediant
Supertonic
Tonic
Subtonic
Submediant
Subdominant

Now doesn't that make sense in about a half dozen ways?

*** No ear players were harmed in the making of this post ***

[pauln]

Apropos of nothing, I love this stuff so much. I have this sheet I scribbled out...

You need one for chords, too...

C Major (C E G)
C Minor (C Eb G)
C Augmented (C E G#)
C Diminished (C Eb Gb)
C Dominant 7th (C E G Bb)
C Major 7th (C E G B)
C Minor 7th (C Eb G Bb)
C Minor Maj 7th (C Eb G B)
C Aug 7 (C E G# Bb)
C Aug Maj 7 (C E G# B)
C Half Dim 7 (C Eb G Bb)
C Full Dim 7 (C Eb Gb Bbb)
C Dim Maj 7 (C Eb Gb B)
C 9 (C E G Bb D)
C b9 (C E G Bb Db)
C #9 (C E G Bb D#)
C Maj 9 (C E G B D)
C Maj b9 (C E G B Db)
C Maj #9 (C E G B D#)
C Min 9 (C Eb G Bb D)
C Min b9 (C Eb G Bb Db)
C Min Maj 9 (C Eb G B D)
C Min Maj b9 (C Eb G B Db)
C Min Maj #9 (C Eb G B D#)
C Aug 9 (C E G# Bb D)
C Aug b9 (C E G# Bb Db)
C Aug #9 (C E G# Bb D#)
C Aug Maj 9 (C E G# B D)
C Aug Maj b9 (C E G# B Db)
C Aug Maj #9 (C E G# B D#)
C Half Dim 9 (C Eb Gb Bb D)
C Half Dim b9 (C Eb Gb Bb Db)
C Dim 9 (C Eb Gb Bbb D)
C Dim b9 (C Eb Gb Bbb Db)
C Dim Maj 9 (C Eb Gb B D)
C Dim Maj b9 (C Eb Gb B Db)
C 11 (C E G Bb D F)
C b9 11 (C E G Bb Db F)
C #9 11 (C E G Bb D# F)
C #11 (C E G Bb D F#)
C b9 #11 (C E G Bb Db F#)
C #9 #11 (C E G Bb D# F#)
C Maj 11 (C E G B D F)
C Maj b9 11 (C E G B Db F)
C Maj #9 11 (C E G B D# F)
C Maj #11 (C E G B D F#)
C Maj b9 #11 (C E G B Db F#)
C Maj #9 #11 (C E G B D# F#)
C Min 11 (C Eb G Bb D F)
C Min b9 11 (C Eb G Bb Db F)
C Min #9 11 (C Eb G Bb D# F)
C Min #11 (C Eb G Bb D F#)
C Min b9 #11 (C Eb G Bb Db F#)
C Min #9 #11 (C Eb G Bb D# F#)
C Min Maj 11 (C Eb G B D F)
C Min Maj b9 11 (C Eb G B Db F)
C Min Maj #9 11 (C Eb G B D# F)
C Min Maj #11 (C Eb G B D F#)
C Min Maj b9 #11 (C Eb G B Db F#)
C Min Maj #9 #11 (C Eb G B D# F#)
C Aug 11 (C E G# Bb D F)
C Aug b9 11 (C E G# Bb Db F)
C Aug #9 11 (C E G# Bb D# F)
C Aug #11 (C E G# Bb D F#)
C Aug b9 #11 (C E G# Bb Db F#)
C Aug #9 #11 (C E G# Bb D# F#)
C Aug Maj 11 (C E G# B D F)
C Aug Maj b9 11 (C E G# B Db F)
C Aug Maj #9 11 (C E G# B D# F)
C Aug Maj #11 (C E G# B D F#)
C Aug Maj b9 #11 (C E G# B Db F#)
C Aug Maj #9 #11 (C E G# B D# F#)
C Half Dim 11 (C Eb Gb Bb D F)
C Half Dim b9 11 (C Eb Gb Bb Db F)
C Dim 11 (C Eb Gb Bbb D F)
C Dim b9 11 (C Eb Gb Bbb Db F)
C Dim Maj 11 (C Eb Gb B D F)
C Dim Maj b9 11 (C Eb Gb B D F#)
C 13 (C E G Bb D F A)
C b9 11 13 (C E G Bb Db F A)
C #9 11 13 (C E G Bb D# F A)
C #11 13 (C E G Bb D F# A)
C b9 #11 13 (C E G Bb Db F# A)
C #9 #11 13 (C E G Bb D# F# A)
C Maj13 (C E G B D F A)
C Maj b9 11 13 (C E G B Db F A)
C Maj #9 11 13 (C E G B D# F A)
C Maj #11 13 (C E G B D F# A)
C Maj b9 #11 13 (C E G B Db F# A)
C Maj #9 #11 13 (C E G B D# F# A)
C Min11 13 (C Eb G Bb D F A)
C Min b9 11 13 (C Eb G Bb Db F A)
C Min #9 11 13 (C Eb G Bb D# F A)
C Min #11 13 (C Eb G Bb D F# A)
C Min b9 #11 13 (C Eb G Bb Db F# A)
C Min #9 #11 13 (C Eb G Bb D# F# A)
C Min Maj 13 (C Eb G B D F A)
C Min Maj b9 11 (C Eb G B Db F A)
C Min Maj #9 11 13 (C Eb G B D# F A)
C Min Maj #11 13 (C Eb G B D F# A)
C Min Maj b9 #11 13 (C Eb G B Db F# A)
C Min Maj #9 #11 13 (C Eb G B D# F# A)

[pamosmusic]

Zoinks.

[John A.]

My two favorite modes are the Stygian and the Epicanthian.

[ccroft]

All this talk of Just Friends makes me want to listen to the definitive version:

“Anybody can play. The note is only 20%. The attitude of the mother****er who plays it is 80 percent.”

[Christian Miller]

here in the states the 4th mode of MM is usually called Lydian b7 and 5th Mixo b13.

That’s somehow even worse.

[Christian Miller]

They should be called

Dominant #4
Dominant b6

(with dominant being ‘mixolydian’ as in Barry Harris’s teaching.)

Or just name the scale the same as the chord symbol.

[Christian Miller]

You need one for chords, too...

C Major (C E G)
C Minor (C Eb G)
C Augmented (C E G#)
C Diminished (C Eb Gb)
C Dominant 7th (C E G Bb)
C Major 7th (C E G B)
C Minor 7th (C Eb G Bb)
C Minor Maj 7th (C Eb G B)
C Aug 7 (C E G# Bb)
C Aug Maj 7 (C E G# B)
C Half Dim 7 (C Eb G Bb)
C Full Dim 7 (C Eb Gb Bbb)
C Dim Maj 7 (C Eb Gb B)
C 9 (C E G Bb D)
C b9 (C E G Bb Db)
C #9 (C E G Bb D#)
C Maj 9 (C E G B D)
C Maj b9 (C E G B Db)
C Maj #9 (C E G B D#)
C Min 9 (C Eb G Bb D)
C Min b9 (C Eb G Bb Db)
C Min Maj 9 (C Eb G B D)
C Min Maj b9 (C Eb G B Db)
C Min Maj #9 (C Eb G B D#)
C Aug 9 (C E G# Bb D)
C Aug b9 (C E G# Bb Db)
C Aug #9 (C E G# Bb D#)
C Aug Maj 9 (C E G# B D)
C Aug Maj b9 (C E G# B Db)
C Aug Maj #9 (C E G# B D#)
C Half Dim 9 (C Eb Gb Bb D)
C Half Dim b9 (C Eb Gb Bb Db)
C Dim 9 (C Eb Gb Bbb D)
C Dim b9 (C Eb Gb Bbb Db)
C Dim Maj 9 (C Eb Gb B D)
C Dim Maj b9 (C Eb Gb B Db)
C 11 (C E G Bb D F)
C b9 11 (C E G Bb Db F)
C #9 11 (C E G Bb D# F)
C #11 (C E G Bb D F#)
C b9 #11 (C E G Bb Db F#)
C #9 #11 (C E G Bb D# F#)
C Maj 11 (C E G B D F)
C Maj b9 11 (C E G B Db F)
C Maj #9 11 (C E G B D# F)
C Maj #11 (C E G B D F#)
C Maj b9 #11 (C E G B Db F#)
C Maj #9 #11 (C E G B D# F#)
C Min 11 (C Eb G Bb D F)
C Min b9 11 (C Eb G Bb Db F)
C Min #9 11 (C Eb G Bb D# F)
C Min #11 (C Eb G Bb D F#)
C Min b9 #11 (C Eb G Bb Db F#)
C Min #9 #11 (C Eb G Bb D# F#)
C Min Maj 11 (C Eb G B D F)
C Min Maj b9 11 (C Eb G B Db F)
C Min Maj #9 11 (C Eb G B D# F)
C Min Maj #11 (C Eb G B D F#)
C Min Maj b9 #11 (C Eb G B Db F#)
C Min Maj #9 #11 (C Eb G B D# F#)
C Aug 11 (C E G# Bb D F)
C Aug b9 11 (C E G# Bb Db F)
C Aug #9 11 (C E G# Bb D# F)
C Aug #11 (C E G# Bb D F#)
C Aug b9 #11 (C E G# Bb Db F#)
C Aug #9 #11 (C E G# Bb D# F#)
C Aug Maj 11 (C E G# B D F)
C Aug Maj b9 11 (C E G# B Db F)
C Aug Maj #9 11 (C E G# B D# F)
C Aug Maj #11 (C E G# B D F#)
C Aug Maj b9 #11 (C E G# B Db F#)
C Aug Maj #9 #11 (C E G# B D# F#)
C Half Dim 11 (C Eb Gb Bb D F)
C Half Dim b9 11 (C Eb Gb Bb Db F)
C Dim 11 (C Eb Gb Bbb D F)
C Dim b9 11 (C Eb Gb Bbb Db F)
C Dim Maj 11 (C Eb Gb B D F)
C Dim Maj b9 11 (C Eb Gb B D F#)
C 13 (C E G Bb D F A)
C b9 11 13 (C E G Bb Db F A)
C #9 11 13 (C E G Bb D# F A)
C #11 13 (C E G Bb D F# A)
C b9 #11 13 (C E G Bb Db F# A)
C #9 #11 13 (C E G Bb D# F# A)
C Maj13 (C E G B D F A)
C Maj b9 11 13 (C E G B Db F A)
C Maj #9 11 13 (C E G B D# F A)
C Maj #11 13 (C E G B D F# A)
C Maj b9 #11 13 (C E G B Db F# A)
C Maj #9 #11 13 (C E G B D# F# A)
C Min11 13 (C Eb G Bb D F A)
C Min b9 11 13 (C Eb G Bb Db F A)
C Min #9 11 13 (C Eb G Bb D# F A)
C Min #11 13 (C Eb G Bb D F# A)
C Min b9 #11 13 (C Eb G Bb Db F# A)
C Min #9 #11 13 (C Eb G Bb D# F# A)
C Min Maj 13 (C Eb G B D F A)
C Min Maj b9 11 (C Eb G B Db F A)
C Min Maj #9 11 13 (C Eb G B D# F A)
C Min Maj #11 13 (C Eb G B D F# A)
C Min Maj b9 #11 13 (C Eb G B Db F# A)
C Min Maj #9 #11 13 (C Eb G B D# F# A)

please tell me you didn’t type that out

[Christian Miller]

As an aside stemming from "sub and super"...

The usual presentation of the degree names is like this:

Tonic
Supertonic
Mediant
Subdominant
Dominant
Submediant
Subtonic
Leading Tone

The Supertonic is under the Tonic?
The Subdominant is over the Dominant?
Why eight names for seven notes?
Is there a way to arrange these so the names are coherent?

First let's correct the apparent order with respect to pitch ascending

Leading Tone
Subtonic
Submediant
Dominant
Subdominant
Mediant
Supertonic
Tonic

Next, realize that the Subtonic is b7 by default, but called the Leading Tone if it is the natural 7, so Leading Tone is just an alternate name for the 7 - leave it out and just call it Subtonic, or Leading Tone if 7 is natural

Put the Tonic in the center and build out from there...

Start with the Tonic and place the Dominant a fifth above and the Subdominant a fifth below...

Dominant
Tonic
Subdominant

Now place the Mediant above and between the Tonic and Dominant, and the Submediant below and between the Tonic and the Subdominant...

Dominant
Mediant
Tonic
Submediant
Subdominant

Place the Supertonic above and between the Tonic and the Mediant
Place the Subtonic below and between the Tonic and the Submediant

Dominant
Mediant
Supertonic
Tonic
Subtonic
Submediant
Subdominant

The fully explicit named version would be

Superdominant
Supermediant
Supertonic
Tonic
Subtonic
Submediant
Subdominant

Now doesn't that make sense in about a half dozen ways?

*** No ear players were harmed in the making of this post ***

Thank you for identifying another stupid bunch of names. Classical theorists in the UK actually talk like this ‘a major triad built on the lowered supertonic’. I like the brevity of the US/jazz system (flat the II) .