Theory vs. playing by ear

[Tal_175]

nothing funny about it, it’s a fact, and the analysis is simple. last bar is subV7/IV preceded by it’s related ii-7 resolving to the new one chord.

A huge number of standards go to the IV chord in the bridge. It would be a bit strange to analyze some of those bridges as modulations.

[Chris236]

A huge number of standards go to the IV chord in the bridge. It would be a bit strange to analyze some of those bridges as modulations.

You guys might want to go back and read what I’ve written a few times now. Simply going to the IVmaj7 chord is not a modulation, however, any major7 chord, preceded by its related five chord IS a modulation.

[pamosmusic]

Peter, it’s not about thinking. It’s about hearing and any maj7 chord preceded by It’s related V7 chord always sounds like the new Imaj7.

it is slightly obfuscated by the fact that, after one time through the form, you still have the key of G ringing in your ears-but the power of that five cord refocuses the ears to the new tonic.

It’s also worth noting that if your first paragraph is true … and it’s about hearing … then your second paragraph suggests that maybe the temporary tonicization of that IV chord is subsumed by the wider context of the whole tune.

[Tal_175]

You guys might want to go back and read what I’ve written a few times now. Simply going to the IVmaj7 chord is not a modulation, however, any major7 chord, preceded by its related five chord IS a modulation.

The bridges are almost always preceded by secondary dominants or back door dominants.

[Chris236]

The bridges are almost always preceded by secondary dominants or back door dominants.

right. And when that has happened, a modulation has occurred.

[pamosmusic]

You guys might want to go back and read what I’ve written a few times now. Simply going to the IVmaj7 chord is not a modulation, however, any major7 chord, preceded by its related five chord IS a modulation.

Nah I get it. I just think you’re oversimplifying.

Take If I Were a Bell.

| F - F7 | Bb - Bo | F (usually over C) etc …

To me that Bb is a IV chord whether the F7 is there or not. It’s there for two beats. It’s followed immediately by a chord pulling you to the original I chord.

Im not sure why it helps to call it a temporary I chord. I’m not sure why I would hear it as a I chord. I’m not sure how it would help if I did.

[Tal_175]

The IV chord in the bridge (preceded by secondary dominants) also happens in minor tones. Summertime in A doesn't modulate to Dminor in the bridge.

[pamosmusic]

right. And when that has happened, a modulation has occurred.

There’s gray area here. A Train bridge? Sure. Modulation. I can get behind that. Don’t Get Around Much Anymore? Maybe a modulation.

It’s very useful to describe some things as modulations in some situations.

[Chris236]

The IV chord in the bridge (preceded by secondary dominants) also happens in minor tones. Summertime in A doesn't modulate to Dminor in the bridge.

go back and read what I’ve written several times now. Any *major7* chord, preceded by its related five chord is the new one chord.

[Chris236]

There’s gray area here. A Train bridge? Sure. Modulation. I can get behind that. Don’t Get Around Much Anymore? Maybe a modulation.

It’s very useful to describe some things as modulations in some situations.

It’s not about a description, (although a progression’s analysis should reflect how it actually sounds). It’s about how the progression *actually* sounds. And any maj7 chord preceded by it’s relative V7 chord SOUNDS like the new I chord

[Tal_175]

go back and read what I’ve written several times now. Any *major7* chord, preceded by its related five chord is the new one chord.

I know that's what you said. That's why I said "also". My point is, going to the IV chord in the bridge is a common song form that happens also in minor. It has a particular effect of song going on a journey.

Because it's such a common songwriting device, the secondary dominant can be perceived as a passing chord to smooth-out the progression and not modulation, IMO. One can't make that statement without hearing the melody. If there is modulation, that would be in the melody.

[mr. beaumont]

And all of this bickering helps you play a song how?

[Chris236]

I know that's what you said. That's why I said "also". My point is, going to the IV chord in the bridge is a common song form that happens also in minor. It has a particular effect of song going on a journey.

Because it's such a common songwriting device, the secondary dominant can be perceived as a passing chord to smooth-out the progression and not modulation, IMO. One can't make that statement without hearing the melody. If there is modulation, that would be in the melody.

hah, well try playing that #11 on the IVmaj7 chord’s related V7 and get back to me.

and yes, modulating to the key of the IVmaj7 chord is very common.

#11 is a fine note on both the IV and I chords but it under no circumstances means a modulation hasn’t occurred.

Good luck with this! I’m out!

[pamosmusic]

It’s not about a description, (although a progression’s analysis should reflect how it actually sounds). It’s about how the progression *actually* sounds. And any maj7 chord preceded by it’s relative V7 chord SOUNDS like the new I chord

Boss. That’s the second time you’ve insisted on this but again …

… why exactly do you get to dictate how I hear a chord in a certain tune.

[Christian Miller]

Oh hai! What have you crazy kids been up to?

[pauln]

It’s about how the progression *actually* sounds. And any maj7 chord preceded by it’s relative V7 chord SOUNDS like the new I chord

The first 1 of the first 2 5 1 of "End of a Love Affair" does not sound like the 1 of the subsequent 2 5 1 immediately after. If you were right, then why put the brakes on after the first two 2 5 1s? Why not just keep 2 5 1ing down by whole steps for three minutes and pretend that wouldn't sound funny, nobody would notice, because any maj7 chord preceded by it’s relative V7 chord SOUNDS like the new I chord?

Who would notice are those who play and those who listen (including audiences of non musicians) who hear the key throughout the tune's progression, and hear melody and progression harmony against that key, and hear legitimate modulations as changes in key.

[Chris236]

Boss. That’s the second time you’ve insisted on this but again …

… why exactly do you get to dictate how I hear a chord in a certain tune.

well, to be fair I repeated that *fact* at LEAST 4 or 5 times, but, it’s all about sensitivity to harmonic function, bottom line.

[pamosmusic]

well, to be fair I repeated that *fact* at LEAST 4 or 5 times, but, it’s all about sensitivity to harmonic function, bottom line.

I mean you’re aware you’re stating that the way something sounds is objective fact.

Which is rather weird.

But I really am curious:

Take If I Were a Bell.

| F - F7 | Bb - Bo | F (usually over C) etc …

To me that Bb is a IV chord whether the F7 is there or not. It’s there for two beats. It’s followed immediately by a chord pulling you to the original I chord.

Two-beat key change?

Im not sure why anyone would hear it that way, or at least I’m not sure why that would help—let alone why someone would insist on others hearing it that way.

[Chris236]

The first 1 of the first 2 5 1 of "End of a Love Affair" does not sound like the 1 of the subsequent 2 5 1 immediately after. If you were right, then why put the brakes on after the first two 2 5 1s? Why not just keep 2 5 1ing down by whole steps for three minutes and pretend that wouldn't sound funny, nobody would notice, because any maj7 chord preceded by it’s relative V7 chord SOUNDS like the new I chord?

Who would notice are those who play and those who listen (including audiences of non musicians) who hear the key throughout the tune's progression, and hear melody and progression harmony against that key, and hear legitimate modulations as changes in key.

nope, sorry. The fact remains, any MAJOR 7th chord preceded by it’s related V7 is the new Imaj7

This is basic harmony we’re talking about here folks. If you don’t understand, I suggest you check it out…ask yourself what you’re REALLY hearing after the cadence. You might be surprised from the sound of it.

[Chris236]

I mean you’re aware you’re stating that the way something sounds is objective fact.

Which is rather weird.

But I really am curious:



Two-beat key change?

Im not sure why anyone would hear it that way, or at least I’m not sure why that would help—let alone why someone would insist on others hearing it that way.

Peter – it’s an objective fact in that it’s what’s most fundamental. In the same way dominant seventh chord’s that don’t resolve down a perfect fifth take Lydian b7, or nondiatonic -7 chords take Dorian, or any Maj7 other than the Imaj7 chord takes Lydian…..all 12 notes are available to me 100% of the time, to be sure, but getting in touch with the most fundamental choices in a honest way is important….as opposed to a mind numbingly reductionist point of view like ‘Just Friends’ never moves from ‘G’.

if you’d like me to analyze ‘If I Were A Bell’ for you, post a lead sheet that you like the changes on, and I’ll happily do so for you.

[pamosmusic]

Peter – it’s an objective fact in that it’s what’s most fundamental. In the same way dominant seventh chord’s that don’t resolve down a perfect fifth take Lydian b7, or nondiatonic -7 chords take Dorian, or any Maj7 other than the Imaj7 chord takes Lydian…..all 12 notes are available to me 100% of the time, to be sure, but getting in touch with the most fundamental choices in a honest way is important….as opposed to a mind numbingly reductionist point of view like ‘Just Friends’ never moves from ‘G’.

if you’d like me to analyze ‘If I Were A Bell’ for you, post a lead sheet that you like the changes on, and I’ll happily do so for you.

Chris.

You have an interesting definition of reductionist.

And that’s a pass from me on the lead sheet, but thanks for the offer.

[Chris236]

Chris.

You have an interesting definition of reductionist.

And that’s a pass from me on the lead sheet, but thanks for the offer.

You mean reducing all the changes in Just Friends to harmonies that solely revolve around the key of G? That’s reductionist.

All this is closely tied to how well you ‘hear’….bringing us back around to the thread title.

Another point of interest - after having taught literally thousands of people how to improvise, it’s interesting to me that (of the people who can hear) it’s about 50/50 between folks that, given a sole Cmaj7 chord, would hear Lydian vs Ionian…. When preceded by its relative V7 chord however, that locks in its sonic position in the key almost ALL the time however!

Good luck with your harmony!

[pamosmusic]

Man. Saying something is “in G” doesn’t mean every single chord in it is diatonic to the scale of G.

It means I “hear” the harmony moving to G all the time. Rather than, say, Sentimental Mood, wherein the bridge “sounds” distinct from the A sections.

Basic harmony courses often distinguish tonicization from modulation based on the length of the stretch of borrowed chords and the strength of the cadence establishing them. It’s not an accident that those are fuzzy, subjective standards.

Reductionist would be telling a person that the way they hear and interpret a piece of real life music is objectively incorrect.

Im glad you’ve taught a lot of students. You sound like you know a lot and they were probably lucky to study with you. But I’m not sure what’s up with applying that kind of rigid objective standard to the way someone should hear something.

I don’t hear it the way you’re describing. I hear it in the context of the wider tune. Tell me I’m wrong again. It doesn’t make it the case. I’ve spent a lot of time listening to a lot of tunes too, and the way I hear them is sure to change in the future. So maybe I’ll hear it the way you describe sometime later, and maybe I hear it that way sometimes now on some tunes, but the fact that it’ll change at all sort of gives lie to the way you’re talking about it right now.

[Chris236]

Man. Saying something is “in G” doesn’t mean every single chord in it is diatonic to the scale of G.

It means I “hear” the harmony moving to G all the time. Rather than, say, Sentimental Mood, wherein the bridge “sounds” distinct from the A sections.

Basic harmony courses often distinguish tonicization from modulation based on the length of the stretch of borrowed chords and the strength of the cadence establishing them. It’s not an accident that those are fuzzy, subjective standards.

Reductionist would be telling a person that the way they hear and interpret a piece of real life music is objectively incorrect.

Im glad you’ve taught a lot of students. You sound like you know a lot and they were probably lucky to study with you. But I’m not sure how applying an objective standard like that is helping someone understand the music.

I don’t hear it the way you’re describing. I hear it in the context of the wider tune. Tell me I’m wrong again. It doesn’t make it the case. I’ve spent a lot of time listening to a lot of tunes and the way I hear them is sure to change in the future. So maybe I’ll hear it the way you describe sometime later, but the fact that it’ll change at all sort of gives lie to the way you’re talking about it right now.

Peter, first of all yes - your hearing does naturally refine over time (HONESTLY) and obviously what I meant (and it’s tricky over the net) is that saying Just Friends never modulates is reductionist. Of course, there are chords that are non-diatonic to the key of G in the tune, but that’s not what we’re talking about and I’m not looking to do an online seminar here!

My point as stated in the initial post is that, again, any major7 chord, preceded by its related V7 chord, sounds like the new 1 chord…. It’s a fundamental and if you listen closely, you don’t need anyone to tell you this(although you’ll definitely find it in Berklee harmony textbooks). The duration *can* be a factor in modulation but when it comes to V7 —> Imaj7, as soon as the cadence is discerned the key has changed….Giant Steps is a good example. Only takes a split second to discern the new key during the cadence.

Just Friends obfuscates it a bit because for the majority of the form Cmaj7 WOULD be the VI chord, but all it takes is the quick cadence at the bottom of each section to reorient your(MY) ears.

Why say any of this at all? Well, I was initially responding to a comment about what key JF’s was in and playing devils advocate to show it can be ambiguous at best when you’re referring to a tune that modulates at the top of the form. lol

As for my own students, I like people to come at ‘theory’ as organically as possible….but, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I believe having the right labels to put on things can be helpful in sorting out the manifold sounds - so, best case scenario, there is a balance of cerebral understanding with a lot of time spent improvising, until you start to feel/hear the fundamentals without ‘enforcing’ any harmonic principles on yourself during the act.

Ironically, and as opposed to a chord scale approach, I find that helping people get really proficient with triads then ‘filling in the blanks’ with what sounds ‘right’ using their ears often leads people to the “correct” chord scale in an organic way without the stress of having to worry about it in the moment. It takes lots practice but is much more in line with how Beboppers learned to play no doubt.

Anyway, good luck on your journey.

[mr. beaumont]

And all of this bickering helps you play a song how?

And?