Theory vs. playing by ear

**Bobby Timmons** · 12-31-2022, 02:19 AM

I went to explain scales, arps, intervals, chromatics to Tony and he got mad that I was teaching him something lol. That's the last time I ever do that. :P

**ragman1** · 12-31-2022, 03:39 AM

Who's Tony?

**Bobby Timmons** · 12-31-2022, 03:53 AM

My teacher Tony Monaco.

**Litterick** · 12-31-2022, 05:12 AM

Oh, I see. Not Tony Soprano. Now I understand.

**Bobby Timmons** · 01-03-2023, 09:12 PM

He was mad at me today lol.

I had to let him know that Autumn Leavz was in minor tho.

He was saying he wondered why E-maj notes like C# sounded good when the song's in G major. I said because it's in E minor.. And then I ran.

**Christian Miller** · 01-06-2023, 06:56 AM

TBF I know some good players with a shaky grasp of theory who think the first chord of Just Friends is the key.

You have to call 'Just friends in F, first chord Bb' just to check.

Mind you someone called After You've Gone in Bb the other day and I played the first chord as Bb lol. I was to be fair, very tired.

**alez** · 09-06-2023, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

TBF I know some good players with a shaky grasp of theory who think the first chord of Just Friends is the key.

You have to call 'Just friends in F, first chord Bb' just to check.

Mind you someone called After You've Gone in Bb the other day and I played the first chord as Bb lol. I was to be fair, very tired.

90%+ of the times, the key is what you hear on measure #31

Much more reliable than measure #1 or looking at the key signature

**AllanAllen** · 09-06-2023, 10:32 AM

I called a blues in Bb and then accidentally played in C wondering why the bass player looked so confused.

**alez** · 09-06-2023, 11:06 AM

I heard a guy say "blues in C" but in reality the guy had said "blues en si" (B in Spanish). As a trumpeter I gave my lip a hard time trying to play in tune.

**Chris236** · 09-13-2023, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

TBF I know some good players with a shaky grasp of theory who think the first chord of Just Friends is the key.

You have to call 'Just friends in F, first chord Bb' just to check.

Mind you someone called After You've Gone in Bb the other day and I played the first chord as Bb lol. I was to be fair, very tired.

well, typically the last bar of the tune has a subV /IV with it’s interpolated ii…..any time a dom7 resolves down a 5th or 1/2 step to a maj7 that becomes your new key….even if very temporarily.

**Chris236** · 09-13-2023, 08:32 AM

Theory is useful mostly as it gives us a handle to put on (what seems like a first) a myriad of random sounds. The labels and organization it provides can help to untangle the knot, but, this is all contingent on connecting the verbiage with the actual sounds.

A mistake folks make is trying to ‘impose’ the theory on themselves. The theory is just a subtle reflection of reality, not laws that need to be enforced. When you get sensitive to that reality (an ear thing) you start to feel it without cognition. This is something you can practice.

A great example of this (on our own instrument) is of course Wes….who didn’t have the book training, but had a profound understanding of harmony and melody through intense listening/playing and love of music.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-13-2023, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

He was mad at me today lol.

I had to let him know that Autumn Leavz was in minor tho.

He was saying he wondered why E-maj notes like C# sounded good when the song's in G major. I said because it's in E minor.. And then I ran.

Your teacher thought Autumn Leaves was a major key tune? Red flag.

**Chris236** · 09-13-2023, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Your teacher thought Autumn Leaves was a major key tune? Red flag.

this is slightly obtuse. much is in G major (with a couple in C major) and plenty in E minor if we’re talking book key/changes. Like most, it’s not a static situation.

**Christian Miller** · 09-13-2023, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Chris236

well, typically the last bar of the tune has a subV /IV with it’s interpolated ii…..any time a dom7 resolves down a 5th or 1/2 step to a maj7 that becomes your new key….even if very temporarily.

No

Or at least it’s complicated. I can’t regard a secondary dominant to subdominant as a true modulation because the way we return from that chord is very specific. In just friends we do not return via another ii V; we return via minor subdominant. So the chord remains subdominant.

Actually at no point do I think Just friends modulates.

of course if you a ii V guy you just cut and paste your ii V’s and it doesn’t matter.

**Chris236** · 09-13-2023, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

No

wrong

**Christian Miller** · 09-13-2023, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Chris236

wrong

haha I’ve expanded a little on why.

Chromatic chords - even applied dominants do not necessarily mean a modulation. It’s a grey area.

**Chris236** · 09-13-2023, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

haha I’ve expanded a little on why.

Chromatic chords - even applied dominants do not necessarily mean a modulation. It’s a grey area.

wrong, you are confused I am afraid.

any maj7 chord, preceded by its related V7 chord, becomes the new one chord. Even though in this case, it’s only for a Measure. If the last measure is D-7 Db7 -> Cmaj7 technically at the top of the form you are in C. Just like a lot of tunes, you can put a handle on it based on the key that the vast majority of the song is in but it’s not a static state.

**pamosmusic** · 09-13-2023, 11:39 AM

Just on its face that’s not right. A secondary dominant going to a IV doesn’t modulate you to the other key. I suppose you could say it tonicizes a new chord or whatever, but if any large number of people believed that made it a new key, then there wouldn’t be much need for a secondary dominant chord as a concept. I guess it’s just a theoretical thing anyway, but it probably makes a difference in practice.

I’m all over the #11 on that first chord in Just Friends. Than that backdoor ii-V. It doesn’t resolve where it’s expected to. You could I guess call that a ii-V in Bb, but then you lose a lot of the color inherent in how folks often interpret that cadence—the #11 on the F7 chord, for example.

Thinking of everything as a modulation kind of confuses a lot of the colorful things that come from thinking of things in context.

**Chris236** · 09-13-2023, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Just on its face that’s not right. A secondary dominant going to a IV doesn’t modulate you to the other key. I suppose you could say it tonicizes a new chord or whatever, but if any large number of people believed that made it a new key, then there wouldn’t be much need for a secondary dominant chord as a concept. I guess it’s just a theoretical thing anyway, but it probably makes a difference in practice.

I’m all over the #11 on that first chord in Just Friends. Than that backdoor ii-V. It doesn’t resolve where it’s expected to. You could I guess call that a ii-V in Bb, but then you lose a lot of the color inherent in how folks often interpret that cadence—the #11 on the F7 chord, for example.

Thinking of everything as a modulation kind of confuses a lot of the colorful things that come from thinking of things in context.

you might play that #11 on the I chord if it makes you happy, but make no mistake, any major7 chord preceded by its five chord is the new one chord. The ‘I’ chord defines the key of the moment.

**pamosmusic** · 09-13-2023, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Chris236

you might play that #11 on the I chord if it makes you happy, but make no mistake, any major7 chord preceded by its five chord is the new one chord. The ‘I’ chord defines the key of the moment.

A #11 ALWAYS makes me happy.

But on the real … it just seems like a reductive way of looking at it.

**pamosmusic** · 09-13-2023, 11:47 AM

I guess the question would be: what is the utility of thinking of a one-measure “key of the moment?”

What does that tell you that thinking of the chord in a broader context does not?

**Chris236** · 09-13-2023, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

I guess the question would be: what is the utility of thinking of a one-measure “key of the moment?”

What does that tell you that thinking of the chord in a broader context does not?

Peter, it’s not about thinking. It’s about hearing and any maj7 chord preceded by It’s related V7 chord always sounds like the new Imaj7.

it is slightly obfuscated by the fact that, after one time through the form, you still have the key of G ringing in your ears-but the power of that five cord refocuses the ears to the new tonic.

**pamosmusic** · 09-13-2023, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Chris236

Peter, it’s not about thinking. It’s about hearing and any maj7 chord preceded by It’s related V7 chord always sounds like the new Imaj7.

it is slightly obfuscated by the fact that, after one time through the form, you still have the key of G ringing in your ears-but the power of that five cord refocuses the ears to the new tonic.

Ah see I was a bit confused, because if it were about “hearing” then it would be a bit weird for someone to say that the way I hear it is unequivocally wrong.

But I get you now.

**djg** · 09-13-2023, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chris236

you might play that #11 on the I chord if it makes you happy, but make no mistake, any major7 chord preceded by its five chord is the new one chord. The ‘I’ chord defines the key of the moment.

lol, that would lead to some funny functional analysis. s/o should do it.