Theory vs. playing by ear

[Reg]

I'm not sure if we are all talking about the same thing.

Theory and ears... personally and with many musicians I have and still do perform with...are the same thing and can be very useful during performance. I don't go and haven't been in a practice room, in 50 years. Practice rooms are playing live on stage or in some dive...(personally love the dives)

Again, personally they are the same, if I hear something or what might be implied when I hear something while performing...I use theory and ears to think... what or where can this music go. What musical relationships can be created and developed... while performing.

I can use playing or verbal cues... whatever works in that moment to cue rest of ensemble.

What's the difference between verbally explaining or physically playing an example of what or how to play something.... I don't know... the tools used to do the explaining?

Take an example.... contiguous II V's... say in GB's tune "My Latin Brother". There are lots of ways to play. What musical approach are you going to use to solo through. There are theoretical approaches which reflect a Context with a reference and there are simple use your ears approaches which can and do work. The better your skills, the better they work. I'm using example because I just played the tune and and was trying to verbally explain how I approached the changes later that night to another musician. He didn't really understand theory that much... so I eventually just played the possibilities with somewhat stop time examples. But I could have just as easily verbally explained. And the theoretical explanation would have opened the door to many more possibilities than the physical examples.
But both can work.
Here's a simple site for explanation of Contiguous II V's if the term isn't familiar.

https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jaz...tiguous-ii-vs/

[Christian Miller]

I'm not sure if we are all talking about the same thing.

That’s easy - we all aren’t haha

Anyway, what you said. Verbal explanations are more for the teaching room. Professional musicians don’t talk much about theory in rehearsal and so on, at least that’s what I’ve found. The main media of communication are notation, singing and playing. Sometimes recordings.

[Reg]

That's interesting.... I verbally talk on stage all the time... to the players as well as the audience.
I don't really ever have rehearsals, years ago doing R&B shows and working pits but not really playing jazz gigs, and I'm a professional musician... LOL. Different worlds which is cool.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Bireli is one representative of a very ear based tradition of players and a seemingly endless legion of terrifyingly adept guitar players in France and the Low Countries.

And Germany. But Birelli is one of the few to break out of the tradition. That’s what makes him exceptional for me. I would not call him a savant. Most of the gipsies stay among themselves, that’s why no one knows the players. (Being unintegrated into the social majority is part of their tradition as well — something that comes half from the outside not accepting them since centuries and half from the inside as a reaction to that. And their tradition is a very strict, hierarchical one, comparable maybe to really orthodox forms of judaism, islam or christianity — think Amish for the latter. You can find some videos of little boys practicing guitar with their fathers or uncles but you will never find a little girl or therefore a woman playing.)

[CliffR]

Yeah. This is off-topic for the thread but I have never gotten Desmond's playing. He is way down my list of sax players I want to listen to behind greats like Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, Lester Young, etc.

Chet Baker is a much more soulful player in that vein.

Why have Chet Baker vs Paul Desmond when you can have Chet Baler PLUS Paul Desmond:

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Why have Chet Baker vs Paul Desmond when you can have Chet Baler PLUS Paul Desmond:

Desmond was a lyrical cool jazz player and by no means a shredder. Same applies to Chet who AFAIK was a complete ear player who learned his chops from Miles Davis records.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

And Germany. But Birelli is one of the few to break out of the tradition. That’s what makes him exceptional for me. I would not call him a savant. Most of the gipsies stay under themselves, that’s why no one knows the players. (Being unintegrated into the social majority is part of their tradition as well — something that comes half from the outside not accepting them since centuries and half from the inside as a reaction to that. And their tradition is a very strict, hierarchical one, comparable maybe to really orthodox forms of judaism, islam or christianity — think Amish for the latter. You can find some videos of little boys practicing guitar with their fathers or uncles but you will never find a little girl or therefore a woman playing.)

BTW not all Sinti are musically gifted. I once talked to a Sinto who was a junkie and had spent a few years in Bavaria’s heaviest high security prison. I asked him what had derailed him and he told me one thing was a difficult childhood under a father beating his children after having survived a concentration camp (which is unusual as the Sinti see their children as their highest goods and spoil them normally but this experience drove the father mad) and the other thing was that he was never talented enough to learn playing guitar like his brothers and cousins (he liked my playing BTW which I took as a compliment).

[Reg]

And Germany. But Birelli is one of the few to break out of the tradition. That’s what makes him exceptional for me. I would not call him a savant. Most of the gipsies stay under themselves, that’s why no one knows the players. (Being unintegrated into the social majority is part of their tradition as well — something that comes half from the outside not accepting them since centuries and half from the inside as a reaction to that. And their tradition is a very strict, hierarchical one, comparable maybe to really orthodox forms of judaism, islam or christianity — think Amish for the latter. You can find some videos of little boys practicing guitar with their fathers or uncles but you will never find a little girl or therefore a woman playing.)

Yea... I'm old and somewhat still have that same feel about jazz players. Our social society was the dive or dark side society, LOL. Yea some got through with with access through $ connections ... I grew up playing after hour clubs as a kid, never put those hierarchical thoughts together and the 60's were some light etc... I like your posts thanks.

Jazz festivals which have some early example and yea... Newport in 54 and Monterey in 58... but the 70's seemed to be the beginning of the end for the old jazz thing. Which isn't bad, just different.

[rpjazzguitar]

Well working on your ears will make you a better musican. Theory may be useful for categorising phenomena. If you can hear a Lydian dominant chord (like a D9#11) in your head, for instance, and know it when you hear it that’s great. It doesn’t matter what you call it. You can call it ‘A train’ for instance.

the instrument affects the music for sure.

This was a cool video on the subject.

I like the idea of calling it "A Train". That immediately brings the sound to mind -- quicker than "lydian dominant" even though I know the term.

I'm going to try to think about additional specific sounds that way.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I like the idea of calling it "A Train". That immediately brings the sound to mind -- quicker than "lydian dominant" even though I know the term. I'm going to try to think about additional specific sounds that way.

If you are talking about the second chord in A Train: That comes from the whole-tone scale, so there is a b5 not a #11 (which would include a natural 5th). The whole tune includes Strayhorn experiments with the whole-tone scale — just listen to what the Duke is playing in the intro of the original recording (BTW Strayhorn did not like it but someone fished the music out of his dustbin IIRC). This is from 20 years later:

[Christian Miller]

If you are talking about the second chord in A Train: That comes from the whole-tone scale, so there is a b5 not a #11 (which would include a natural 5th). The whole tune includes Strayhorn experiments with the whole-tone scale — just listen to what the Duke is playing in the intro of the original recording (BTW Strayhorn did not like it but someone fished the music out of his dustbin IIRC). This is from 20 years later:

Oi, naff off mate, you make the same pendantic comments I always used to haha. Quite so. I thought about that after I posted it to, but I left it!

(Remember I’m talking to the chord scale hoi polloi here)

’the gods are just and of our pleasant vices make instruments to plague us’

The strayhorn sound is of course the augmented triad used as an upper structure sort of thing. It has no particular chord scale allegiance at this stage that’s more a modern way of thinking. i don’t think it ‘comes from’ a scale. The reason being you have a similar structure in Chelsea Bridge and that has a minor scale melody.

Melodically he alters the key with a #5 to accommodate it, which suggests relative minor without further information.

Duke plays a whole tone run which sounds great of course. Very common choice over 7#11 and 7b5 chord throughout the 40s and 50s

[rpjazzguitar]

If you are talking about the second chord in A Train: That comes from the whole-tone scale, so there is a b5 not a #11 (which would include a natural 5th). The whole tune includes Strayhorn experiments with the whole-tone scale — just listen to what the Duke is playing in the intro of the original recording (BTW Strayhorn did not like it but someone fished the music out of his dustbin IIRC). This is from 20 years later:

I appreciate the reminder that this is WT. That said, I'd offer the following thought.

If you think D lydian dominant, you get D E F# G# A B C. I hear that A as an avoid note, at least in the octave somebody is playing the G#.

The D Whole Tone is D E F# G# A# C.

So, if you're avoiding the A natural in D lydian dominant, the only remaining difference is whether you play a A# or a B.

The A# is within the WT scale and works fine. Maybe best.

But, the B natural also sounds good to me.

So, to my way of thinking, it could be either one -- when I imagine the "A Train Sound", I can hear it either way.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Oi, naff off mate, you make the same pendantic comments I always used to haha. Quite so. I thought about that after I posted it to, but I left it!

(Remember I’m talking to the chord scale hoi polloi here)

’the gods are just and of our pleasant vices make instruments to plague us’

The strayhorn sound is of course the augmented triad used as an upper structure sort of thing. It has no particular chord scale allegiance at this stage that’s more a modern way of thinking. Melodically he alters the key with a #5 to accommodate it, which suggests relative minor without further information.

Duke plays a whole tone run which sounds great of course. Very common choice over 7#11 and 7b5 chord throughout the 40s and 50s

FCK CST LOL

Pedantic greetings from Oktoberfest City

(Haven’t been there for 20 years and was so happy it was canceled twice for the pandemic LOL)

[Christian Miller]

FCK CST LOL

Pedantic greetings from Oktoberfest City

(Haven’t been there for 20 years and was so happy it was canceled twice for the pandemic LOL)

Listen buddy I did a whole vid about the whole tone AND I had the A train example in it too

And yes, Monk is the whole tone boss

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Listen buddy I did a whole vid about the whole tone AND I had the A train example in it too

And yes, Monk is the whole tone boss

That’s gonna be the title of my first jazz album: “Old School Outside Fun” LOL (if you permit — I am gonna name you in the liner notes LOL)

[Christian Miller]

That’s gonna be the title of my first jazz album: “Old School Outside Fun” LOL (if you permit — I am gonna name you in the liner notes LOL)

consider yourself permitted

[Litterick]

Well working on your ears will make you a better musican. Theory may be useful for categorising phenomena. If you can hear a Lydian dominant chord (like a D9#11) in your head, for instance, and know it when you hear it that’s great. It doesn’t matter what you call it. You can call it ‘A train’ for instance.

the instrument affects the music for sure.

This was a cool video on the subject.

Christian, you are not my teacher. You do not know what I need to be a better musician. I do not need your instructions.

[Christian Miller]

Christian, you are not my teacher. You do not know what I need to be a better musician. I do not need your instructions.

Fair enough.

That wasn’t the intention. I probably should have said ‘one’ rather than ‘you’ - the latter makes comments seem more personally directed than intended. Otoh the former is quite a formal usage that I wouldn’t normally use.

That said, it’s good advice. I personally wish I’d listened to this sort of advice a lot earlier.

[ccroft]

...The strayhorn sound is of course the augmented triad used as an upper structure sort of thing. It has no particular chord scale allegiance at this stage that’s more a modern way of thinking. i don’t think it ‘comes from’ a scale. The reason being you have a similar structure in Chelsea Bridge and that has a minor scale melody.

Melodically he alters the key with a #5 to accommodate it, which suggests relative minor without further information...

There we go. Now that's what I call some solid music theory talk! Right along with rp's post.

While I'm familiar with most of the terms, as an 'in-betweener' I'm gonna need a guitar in my hands to see/hear how that works. And that's how music theory is most useful to myself. I may or may not find some new sounds I want to mess around with.

[Christian Miller]

There we go. Now that's what I call some solid music theory talk! Right along with rp's post.

While I'm familiar with most of the terms, as an 'in-betweener' I'm gonna need a guitar in my hands to see/hear how that works. And that's how music theory is most useful to myself. I may or may not find some new sounds I want to mess around with.

yeah and that’s its value to the improviser and composer. It is a source of a resources.

A good musician/player has the ears and feel to take a mode or something and make it sound good.

(a beginner on the other hand will take the exact same pitch set and sound, well, like a beginner.)

And one will learn the most about jazz specifically by learning those tunes, dukes whole tone licks, the arrangements and so on.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm aware of the theory, but when I want the A Train sound I find, by ear, the Ab note against the D7 chord. For some reason, that sound stuck in my head easily. Some other sounds not so much.

If I were to practice the tune I could think, well, I'll try to make a whole tone sound there. So, I'd identify D E F# G# A# C as the pool of notes to work with. And, then, I'd try to make melody using those notes.

The challenge would be getting that sound internalized to the point where I could use it spontaneously without conscious thought (the use of which is like a train suddenly encountering a bad section of track).

I don't know where it fits into the theory vs aural understanding discussion, but, for me, aural understanding usually refers to one sound at a time. In contrast, when I read about theory, the number of sounds being alluded to in a few sentences may become difficult to calculate.

That is, one way we are discussing a certain sound for the second chord of A Train. I understand that you can get there with theory or just by ear. But, for me, it's simple enough to just focus on the sound to assimilate.

At the other extreme, the theory-based discussion may eventually end up with a recommendation to try every possible pair of triads to make hextonics and then playing each of the hexatonics against every possible bass note. (Seriously suggested on another forum).

In my journey, it has always been one sound at a time. I've occasionally employed theoretical notions to search for other sounds but the impact that has had on my playing is near zero. I am well aware that the approach has worked for lots of players, including great players. In fact, I think it works better for the players with bigger ears.

[ccroft]

Everything works better for the players with bigger ears. In 1972 we'd say 'That cat has Elephant Ears'.
(meant as a major compliment of course :-)

[Reg]

Yea... whole tone and dim are like Bluesy sound and feel demolition tools. Great for effects. Take a listen to Ella and Duke performing Take the A Train.... Not that others aren't also great, just different. Might be cool example for Chord Pattern Thread.

But each to their own, if it works for you... great. I know it was a great tool for scoring films and commercials years ago... probable still is. Just personal choices... If that's what the chart or soloist wants... it's not like it's difficult to cover.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Everything works better for the players with bigger ears. In 1972 we'd say 'That cat has Elephant Ears'.
(meant as a major compliment of course :-)

In 1972 my ears literally developed through different embryonic stages LOL. (I think my mother played a lot of Mozart for me as well.)

[kris]

I wonder who of the people discussing here has a musical education?
I mean graduating from a music school - ending with an exam before the commission.