Theory vs. playing by ear

[rpjazzguitar]

I wonder who of the people discussing here has a musical education?
I mean graduating from a music school - ending with an exam before the commission.

Not me. I picked all of this up from my friends on the street.

[Bobby Timmons]

I invented a 45 microtone advanced harmony system by myself only with my ear but I dumb it down to 12 tone to play with people.

[kris]

As I have a music school diploma - classical guitar.
As far as jazz is concerned, I am a self-taught person with over 300 books and educational videos on jazz.
I have several thousand jazz music CDs.
The music school gave me the basics of playing an instrument and improved my hearing.
On the other hand, playing in jazz clubs in my teenage years made me feel like a jazz musician - I have always been passionate about creating.
I am a person who started playing guitar early and the theory was later / books and videos /.My goal has always been to know what I play guitar - that was my priority.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I wonder who of the people discussing here has a musical education?
I mean graduating from a music school - ending with an exam before the commission.

I am self-taught but I read quite a lot of theory books, articles and interviews in magazines and in recent years the internet became my source of information (videos, articles, interviews in written and video form). Lots of bits and pieces, sometimes one sentence in an interview in the Filius Jazz Archive at Hamilton College gives me a new perspective.

I was lucky that Munich’s main public library has a huge music department.

I developed quite good ears in over thirty years and learned a lot of blues and rock stuff from records by ear. Played 10 years in a rock band (ca. 500 gigs) and worked 18 years as a lighting technician at concerts (ca. 1500—2000 probably) which was a lot of inspiration as well.

The only degrees I ever made (apart from the German school degree “Abitur” which enables you to go to a university) are from the schools of “Life” and “Rock’n’Roll” .

Regarding theory my main influences are the very practically oriented theory books by (originally self-taught IIRC) guitarist Werner Pöhlert (who could really play — here with Albert Mangelsdorff on trombone) and in recent years Barry Harris’ teachings whom I had discovered through the internet.

Technique-wise I picked up some stuff from magazines like Guitar Player and since I got know that friend who used to be a classical guitar pro he has pointed me to things now and then but I never had a formal guitar lesson in my life. (I learned recorder during basic school years and had two years of piano lessons from 9 to 11, therefore I know to read a bit. And I took two singing lessons from two different teachers a few years ago.)

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I learned (and still learn) things HERE as well.

[Christian Miller]

Everything works better for the players with bigger ears. In 1972 we'd say 'That cat has Elephant Ears'.
(meant as a major compliment of course :-)

yeah

One of the joys for me developing as a musician is how much more I hear now than when I started. This can be in any area, harmony is certainly one, but rhythm is a massive one.

[Christian Miller]

I'm aware of the theory, but when I want the A Train sound I find, by ear, the Ab note against the D7 chord. For some reason, that sound stuck in my head easily. Some other sounds not so much.

If I were to practice the tune I could think, well, I'll try to make a whole tone sound there. So, I'd identify D E F# G# A# C as the pool of notes to work with. And, then, I'd try to make melody using those notes.

The challenge would be getting that sound internalized to the point where I could use it spontaneously without conscious thought (the use of which is like a train suddenly encountering a bad section of track).

I don't know where it fits into the theory vs aural understanding discussion, but, for me, aural understanding usually refers to one sound at a time. In contrast, when I read about theory, the number of sounds being alluded to in a few sentences may become difficult to calculate.

That is, one way we are discussing a certain sound for the second chord of A Train. I understand that you can get there with theory or just by ear. But, for me, it's simple enough to just focus on the sound to assimilate.

At the other extreme, the theory-based discussion may eventually end up with a recommendation to try every possible pair of triads to make hextonics and then playing each of the hexatonics against every possible bass note. (Seriously suggested on another forum).

In my journey, it has always been one sound at a time. I've occasionally employed theoretical notions to search for other sounds but the impact that has had on my playing is near zero. I am well aware that the approach has worked for lots of players, including great players. In fact, I think it works better for the players with bigger ears.

I just like the idea of grounding the sound in a tune. If you can play A train back in your head and focus on the second chord, you can audiate the sound of a II9#11 chord. If you can separate it from context you get the chord itself. I would regard that as the ‘street approach’ is you like.

Then you can call it a ‘9#11’ chord, C+ on D7 or whatever you like for theoretical purposes if that’s helpful.

If I want the sound of a whole tone I can think of that Ellington/Monk descending whole tone scale line, or I can think of that Wes ascending aug triad line. Stevie’s ‘you are the sunshine of my life’. And so on.

Or I can sing that Barry Harris song ‘I can sing the whole tone scale’. Or Practice singing ‘1 2 3 b5 b6 b7’ or ‘b2 b3 4 5 6 7’ by altering the major scale. And of course, you also ground your ears in it by playing it a lot.

All of these things work. But as you say the whole tone scale doesn’t take long to understand but a lot longer to be able to convincingly use in music. It needs to become intuitive.

[Marinero]

"Same applies to Chet who AFAIK was a complete ear player who learned his chops from Miles Davis records." Bophead

Hi, B,
It's not the case with Chet:
Baker received some musical education at Glendale High School, but he left school at the age of 16 in 1946 to join the United States Army. He was assigned to Berlin, Germany, where he joined the 298th Army Band.^[6]:?170? After leaving the Army in 1948, he studied music theory and harmony at El Camino College in Los Angeles.^[10] He dropped out during his second year to re-enlist. He became a member of the Sixth Army Band at the Presidio in San Francisco,^[10] spending time in clubs such as Bop City and the Black Hawk.^[11] He was discharged from the Army in 1951 and proceeded to pursue a career in music.<sup>[12]

I played with a drummer in the 70's who played 8 years with the Army Band. He was a first-class Jazzer and the band was top notch.
Marinero</sup>

https://youtu.be/dLFH6QeyuHI

[mr. beaumont]

"Same applies to Chet who AFAIK was a complete ear player who learned his chops from Miles Davis records." Bophead

Hi, B,
It's not the case with Chet:
Baker received some musical education at Glendale High School, but he left school at the age of 16 in 1946 to join the United States Army. He was assigned to Berlin, Germany, where he joined the 298th Army Band.^[6]:?170? After leaving the Army in 1948, he studied music theory and harmony at El Camino College in Los Angeles.^[10] He dropped out during his second year to re-enlist. He became a member of the Sixth Army Band at the Presidio in San Francisco,^[10] spending time in clubs such as Bop City and the Black Hawk.^[11] He was discharged from the Army in 1951 and proceeded to pursue a career in music.<sup>[12]

I played with a drummer in the 70's who played 8 years with the Army Band. He was a first-class Jazzer and the band was top notch.
Marinero</sup>

https://youtu.be/dLFH6QeyuHI

In the bio "Deep In a Dream," it mentions Chet's Army band experience...it also mentions that he drove some fellow musicians nuts because he "eared" his way through everything, but you can't be sure of how much of that is glamorizing the ear playing aspect, which seems to happen often, to many players.

By all accounts though, Chet had a tremendous ear.

[ragman1]

Chet had a tremendous ear

[Bobby Timmons]

"Same applies to Chet who AFAIK was a complete ear player who learned his chops from Miles Davis records." Bophead

Hi, B,
It's not the case with Chet:
Baker received some musical education at Glendale High School, but he left school at the age of 16 in 1946 to join the United States Army. He was assigned to Berlin, Germany, where he joined the 298th Army Band.^[6]:?170? After leaving the Army in 1948, he studied music theory and harmony at El Camino College in Los Angeles.^[10] He dropped out during his second year to re-enlist. He became a member of the Sixth Army Band at the Presidio in San Francisco,^[10] spending time in clubs such as Bop City and the Black Hawk.^[11] He was discharged from the Army in 1951 and proceeded to pursue a career in music.^[12]

Christ. I was ready to accept that Chet just made up everything out of thin air. The ear disinformation mob is out-of-control.

[mr. beaumont]

See? PROOF.

[rpjazzguitar]

I just like the idea of grounding the sound in a tune. If you can play A train back in your head and focus on the second chord, you can audiate the sound of a II9#11 chord. If you can separate it from context you get the chord itself. I would regard that as the ‘street approach’ is you like.

Then you can call it a ‘9#11’ chord, C+ on D7 or whatever you like for theoretical purposes if that’s helpful.

If I want the sound of a whole tone I can think of that Ellington/Monk descending whole tone scale line, or I can think of that Wes ascending aug triad line. Stevie’s ‘you are the sunshine of my life’. And so on.

Or I can sing that Barry Harris song ‘I can sing the whole tone scale’. Or Practice singing ‘1 2 3 b5 b6 b7’ or ‘b2 b3 4 5 6 7’ by altering the major scale. And of course, you also ground your ears in it by playing it a lot.

All of these things work. But as you say the whole tone scale doesn’t take long to understand but a lot longer to be able to convincingly use in music. It needs to become intuitive.

If you ask me to sing a descending WT scale I have to think. But, if you ask me to sing the opening of Guinga's Choro Pro Ze, I can sing it without any thought. And yes, it's a descending WT scale.

Ask a beginner to imagine a minmaj9 chord and he may struggle. Say "second chord, Stairway To Heaven" and he's got it right away.

Can you hear 7#9? How about Purple Haze?

Intervals are often taught that way. I still hear b3 as Don't Blame Me's first two notes.

And, of course, lots of chord progressions are taught based on tunes. It seems to connect (for me, anyway) better than a series of roman numerals.

[Christian Miller]

If you ask me to sing a descending WT scale I have to think. But, if you ask me to sing the opening of Guinga's Choro Pro Ze, I can sing it without any thought. And yes, it's a descending WT scale.

Ask a beginner to imagine a minmaj9 chord and he may struggle. Say "second chord, Stairway To Heaven" and he's got it right away.

Can you hear 7#9? How about Purple Haze?

Intervals are often taught that way. I still hear b3 as Don't Blame Me's first two notes.

And, of course, lots of chord progressions are taught based on tunes. It seems to connect (for me, anyway) than a series of roman numerals.

don’t ask me mate I’m apparently a member of the disinformation mob

Yeah, I think basing it on music is good. You can have then have fun collecting examples and extending your aural vocabulary

Interestingly Ravel famously told Ralph Vaughan Williams to compose at the piano because you can’t come up with new harmonies by ear.

bear in mind at this point RVW could compose entire scores out of his head without any problem. But he could only access sounds, harmonies he’d already heard. That’s a shortcoming of this way of doing things. That said, there’s a long journey before you get to that point.

It’s an interesting one.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

"Same applies to Chet who AFAIK was a complete ear player who learned his chops from Miles Davis records." Bophead

Hi, B,
It's not the case with Chet:
Baker received some musical education at Glendale High School, but he left school at the age of 16 in 1946 to join the United States Army. He was assigned to Berlin, Germany, where he joined the 298th Army Band.^[6]:?170? After leaving the Army in 1948, he studied music theory and harmony at El Camino College in Los Angeles.^[10] He dropped out during his second year to re-enlist. He became a member of the Sixth Army Band at the Presidio in San Francisco,^[10] spending time in clubs such as Bop City and the Black Hawk.^[11] He was discharged from the Army in 1951 and proceeded to pursue a career in music.<sup>[12]




I played with a drummer in the 70's who played 8 years with the Army Band. He was a first-class Jazzer and the band was top notch.
Marinero</sup>

https://youtu.be/dLFH6QeyuHI

I could have looked into wiki myself LOL. Thanks for the information I did not know that.

But there is an important passage before the one you quoted:

“Baker began his musical career singing in a church choir. His father gave him a trombone, which was replaced with a trumpet when the trombone proved too large. His mother said that he had begun to memorize tunes on the radio before he was given an instrument. After ‘falling in love’ with the trumpet, he improved noticeably in two weeks. Peers called Baker a natural musician to whom playing came effortlessly.”

and from the German wiki:

„Im Alter von zehn Jahren erhielt Baker von seinem Vater, der Gitarrist war, eine Posaune. Der junge Chet tauschte sie gegen eine Trompete ein. Innerhalb kürzester Zeit konnte er einfache Swing-Melodien nachspielen und lernte nebenbei als Autodidakt das Improvisieren. Seine besondere Fähigkeit bestand darin, harmonische Zusammenhänge schnell zu erfassen und harmonische Vorgaben melodisch zu umspielen. […]”


“At the age of ten Baker got a trombone from his father who was a guitarist. Young Chet swapped it for a trumpet. Within a very short time he could imitate simple swing melodies and incidentially learned improvisng autodidactically. His special capability was comprehending harmonic relationships quickly and playing around harmonic defaults melodically. […]”

Regarding those army bands I had looked a little into them after discovering this video 3 years ago.

Those guys can play but nonetheless I always find them a bit stiff and uninspired. BTW I have some music theoretical US army documents somewhere that someone published somewhere online (against regulations LOL). I found them after someone (can’t remember who) said that the US army’s chord nomenclature was the best one only to find out that their nomenclature varies as well.

But there must have been some exceptional bands as well (and maybe still are). Junior Mance recalled being engaged by Cannonball Adderley to play in a jazz band that played daily in the officer’s mess which safed him from going to Korea where most of his comrades from his unit got killed.

[Marinero]

I could have looked into wiki myself LOL. Thanks for the information I did not know that.

But there is an important passage before the one you quoted:

“Baker began his musical career singing in a church choir. His father gave him a trombone, which was replaced with a trumpet when the trombone proved too large. His mother said that he had begun to memorize tunes on the radio before he was given an instrument. After ‘falling in love’ with the trumpet, he improved noticeably in two weeks. Peers called Baker a natural musician to whom playing came effortlessly.”

and from the German wiki:

„Im Alter von zehn Jahren erhielt Baker von seinem Vater, der Gitarrist war, eine Posaune. Der junge Chet tauschte sie gegen eine Trompete ein. Innerhalb kürzester Zeit konnte er einfache Swing-Melodien nachspielen und lernte nebenbei als Autodidakt das Improvisieren. Seine besondere Fähigkeit bestand darin, harmonische Zusammenhänge schnell zu erfassen und harmonische Vorgaben melodisch zu umspielen. […]”


“At the age of ten Baker got a trombone from his father who was a guitarist. Young Chet swapped it for a trumpet. Within a very short time he could imitate simple swing melodies and incidentially learned improvisng autodidactically. His special capability was comprehending harmonic relationships quickly and playing around harmonic defaults melodically. […]”

Regarding those army bands I had looked a little into them after discovering this video 3 years ago.

Those guys can play but nonetheless I always find them a bit stiff and uninspired. BTW I have some music theoretical US army documents somewhere that someone published somewhere online (against regulations LOL). I found them after someone (can’t remember who) said that the US army’s chord nomenclature was the best one only to find out that their nomenclature varies as well.

But there must have been some exceptional bands as well (and maybe still are). Junior Mance recalled being engaged by Cannonball Adderley to play in a jazz band that played daily in the officer’s mess which safed him from going to Korea where most of his comrades from his unit got killed.

Hi, B,
Chet was a savant. Unlike, Miles, he remained faithful to his quest for creativity and lyricism and he did it better than anyone else on the trumpet. He was a tragic soul in the tradition of the "poetes maudits." His playing at the end of his life was pure magic. RIP!
Marinero

[A. Kingstone]

Pat Labarbera subbed as leader for an 18 piece band I was in and he told a story of Baker from a job he did with him. Chet calls All The Things You Are and someone says "what key", Baker turns around and intones "ehhhhhh" presumably the first note. Well the folks scramble to find the note, Chet plays a chorus and turns around and says "this is not the key I normally play in".

[rpjazzguitar]

don’t ask me mate I’m apparently a member of the disinformation mob

Yeah, I think basing it on music is good. You can have then have fun collecting examples and extending your aural vocabulary

Interestingly Ravel famously told Ralph Vaughan Williams to compose at the piano because you can’t come up with new harmonies by ear.

bear in mind at this point RVW could compose entire scores out of his head without any problem. But he could only access sounds, harmonies he’d already heard. That’s a shortcoming of this way of doing things. That said, there’s a long journey before you get to that point.

It’s an interesting one.

Given that the number of sounds is infinite, and I am only capable of learning them one at a time, patience is a virtue.

Also virtuous is anything that might make the process a bit more efficient. Since the human brain seems to be pretty good at memorizing songs, something that your brain recognizes as a song -- and can be categorized using theory or aural-whatever -- might just be useful on the bandstand.

If your brain can recognize a sophisticated jazz solo as a song, which takes a good deal of repetition for some of us (not to mention myself by name), even better.

[lammie200]

See? PROOF.

All that smack had to go somewhere.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Hi, B,
Chet was a savant. Unlike, Miles, he remained faithful to his quest for creativity and lyricism and he did it better than anyone else on the trumpet. He was a tragic soul in the tradition of the "poetes maudits." His playing at the end of his life was pure magic. RIP!
Marinero

Maybe I have caused some wrong impressions — so to clarify:

• I have always liked Chet Bakers playing and singing from the early to the late stuff (except for the The Mariachi Brass and The Carmel Strings stuff I discovered recently — yet I have to say that I find handmade easy-listening from the 60ies much more charming than e.g. the smooth jazz of today)
• My comment on army bands related to the Jazz Ambassadors of today like in the YouTube link you had provided. They have even beginner lessons on their channel IIRC. (Interesting BTW that Chet was stationed in Berlin. A lot of German jazz musicians after WWII learned from playing with US musicians at the places where the G.I.s went in their leisure time. Jazz had been prohibited in the Third Reich and there was a demand for new input so learning from a live player is always better than from a record.)

[Bobby Timmons]

Some evil theory for you peeps.

[Bobby Timmons]

Maybe I have caused some wrong impressions

You mean purposefully lying that great players don't use theory to further the deep state anti-theory campaign?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

You mean purposefully lying that great players don't use theory to further the deep state anti-theory campaign?

Before you accuse me of purposefully doing things better take your meds and then listen to these Sinti (one German one French):

EDIT: One more for you

EDIT 2: To clarify: This is the tradition Jermaine Landsberger comes from (I got to know him through my piano playing Sinto buddy who said “He is one of our best.”)

[Bobby Timmons]

better take your meds

then listen to these Sinti

Are they mad at theory? Anyway, he sounds really good.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Are they mad at theory? Anyway, he sounds really good.

I am getting the impression that you like to provoke people until they show you some real good music.

[kris]

I am getting the impression that you like to provoke people until they show you some real good music.

+1