Chord functions. What are they for?

[kris]

Dm7 Db7#11 Cmaj7
Db7#11-looks like static/Ab mel min scale

Dm7 G7alt Cmaj7
G7alt-need resolve/Ab mel min scale

[BWV]

...look Summertime -it is in mnor key.Summer is probably a happy time of the year.

and its a lullaby to boot

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Dm7 Db7#11 Cmaj7
Db7#11-looks like static/Ab mel min scale

Dm7 G7alt Cmaj7
G7alt-need resolve/Ab mel min scale

Reminds me of the time I went into a store named "Anders Andersson's" and there was an Asian fellow behind the counter who introduced himself to me as Anders Andersson. I had to ask:

"Excuse me, but you don't look Swedish. How did you get the name Anders Andersson? Were you adopted?"
"No, I immigrated. In the immigration line there were three Swedes ahead of me. The immigration agent asked the first fellow his name and he wrote it down: Anders Andersson. Then he asked the second - Anders Andersson, The third - Anders Andersson. Then he asked me, and I told him my name, Sam Ding."

[rpjazzguitar]

Definitely agree.

I also agree. Where possible, name the chord and the scale the same thing. So C7 lydian dominant, is C7#11. Then, when you add another alteration, you just specify it, as in C7b9#11, and you don't have to have a completely different name for the scale. Or worse, do a logical alteration, say, C7#11b13 and find there is no name for it.

I thought, though, that the reason Berklee does it their way is because chords can be generated by different scales, with different notes that aren't even in the chord. Like Am7 is different if it's vim vs iiim.

[kris]

I also agree. Where possible, name the chord and the scale the same thing. So C7 lydian dominant, is C7#11. Then, when you add another alteration, you just specify it, as in C7b9#11, and you don't have to have a completely different name for the scale. Or worse, do a logical alteration, say, C7#11b13 and find there is no name for it.

I thought, though, that the reason Berklee does it their way is because chords can be generated by different scales, with different notes that aren't even in the chord. Like Am7 is different if it's vim vs iiim.

So what scale you play over C7b9#11?

[rpjazzguitar]

So what scale you play over C7b9#11?

If you name the scale by the chord name it's no big deal. C E F# G A Bb Db.

It's also a CHW dim without the Eb.

Since #9 often sounds good with b9, these are pretty much the same thing.

[kris]

If you name the scale by the chord name it's no big deal. C E F# G A Bb Db.

It's also a CHW dim without the Eb.

Since #9 often sounds good with b9, these are pretty much the same thing.

C E F# G A Bb Db...so what the name of this scale?

C Db E F# G A Bb C- this is CHW with out Eb.

[kris]

251
Gm7 Gb13b5 Fmaj

Gb13b5 is like C7#9#11/ with Gb in bass

[Christian Miller]

So what scale you play over C7b9#11?

Half whole innit

[Christian Miller]

Anyway this thread has devolved into scale talk lol.

Questions like the interminable ‘what scale do I play over this chord?’ would be indeed forever banished if people just call the scale the same thing as the chord. Honestly I feel this is a massive waste of energy that emerges purely from poorly chosen nomenclature. Name the scale after the application. (This is why we should call mixolydian ‘dominant’ like Barry did.)

That said finding a good application based name for the dim scale is a bit trickier….no system is perfect. Dominant diminished and diminished for half whole and whole half respectively seems good enough.

That said what Barry called a dominant diminished is a totally different scale… so, can’t win haha.

The other thing is I am a derivative or relative thinker; I convert to a small number of scales instead of building a different scale for each chord type, D melodic minor on G7, not G Lydian dominant for example. Barry did this but this type of approach is widespread among many jazz musicians. This means I wouldn’t find my suggested amendment all that helpful in fact… anyhoo

[ragman1]

I also agree. Where possible, name the chord and the scale the same thing. So C7 lydian dominant, is C7#11. Then, when you add another alteration, you just specify it, as in C7b9#11, and you don't have to have a completely different name for the scale. Or worse, do a logical alteration, say, C7#11b13 and find there is no name for it.

I thought, though, that the reason Berklee does it their way is because chords can be generated by different scales, with different notes that aren't even in the chord. Like Am7 is different if it's vim vs iiim.

7#11 - lyd dom, alt, WT, dim
7b9#11 - alt, dim
7#11b13 - alt, WT

It's a natural progression from chord function to what-to-play. One is greatly dependent on the other. There's no contradiction.

[kris]

The other thing is I am a derivative or relative thinker; I convert to a small number of scales instead of building a different scale for each chord type, D melodic minor on G7, not G Lydian dominant for example. Barry did this but this type of approach is widespread among many jazz musicians. This means I wouldn’t find my suggested amendment all that helpful in fact… anyhoo

yes...
G Lydian dominant scale= D melodic minor from G
so I use D mel minor over G7#11.

[rpjazzguitar]

yes...
G Lydian dominant scale= D melodic minor from G
so I use D mel minor over G7#11.

That's D E F G A B C#.

I tend to think of it as "a G7 scale with a #11". I know the notes in G7, I know the #11 and I know where they all are. What could possibly go wrong?

But, for someone who has worked out Dmelmin fingerings already, they'll probably prefer thinking Dmelmin.

[kris]

That's D E F G A B C#.

I tend to think of it as "a G7 scale with a #11". I know the notes in G7, I know the #11 and I know where they all are. What could possibly go wrong?

But, for someone who has worked out Dmelmin fingerings already, they'll probably prefer thinking Dmelmin.

I am simplifying it to minor melodic because it is a very universal scale used by most jazz musicians .I use it also a lot.
For me personally, it is more convenient.
I know everyone can have a different approach to this topic.

[Christian Miller]

A

That's D E F G A B C#.

I tend to think of it as "a G7 scale with a #11". I know the notes in G7, I know the #11 and I know where they all are. What could possibly go wrong?

You have to learn more scales (and chromaticallly alter ideas rather than transpose them) but the application is simpler, you pays your money and takes yer choice.

I get the impression in the history that the other way was more common. But there are people who think this way too, especially now, as cumbersome as I find that approach.

But, for someone who has worked out Dmelmin fingerings already, they'll probably prefer thinking Dmelmin.

I presume it’s more likely someone would have practiced the minor scale and learned minor melodies and lines than the locrian #2, so being able to apply minor stuff as widely as possible seems to me like low hanging fruit. You are not limited to melodic minor either (no one on the 50s/60s records uses strict melodic minor, they play melodic lines not textbook scales), but leaning on the natural seventh gives you that sound for any application of the minor; which takes us back the A train and Strayhorn.

For this reason I would prefer the term ‘applied minor’ to melodic minor modes. Everybody did this stuff from at least the 30s on; Herbie didn’t invent in 1963 or whatever the myth is. It’s obvious from guitar grips, which I daresay was Django and Charlie Christians portal into it. That said, Strayhorn definitely pointed the way towards greater use of that maj7 note as a prominent colour in the 50s and 60s…

II7 = relative minor… look through the standards to see what I mean

This is also what Joe Pass means when he says there is only major, minor and dominant. Everything converts to those. Also how Barry taught.

Mastering the conversion rules can be a headache at first, takes a few weeks of focussed practiced. But there’s not many of them that are used in the main. Start with ii V, the tritone, then relating half dim to minor and dominant, and that’s most of it.

The grips are super useful too - you can see right away Am6, D9 are related, Dm6 and Bm7b5 - all Gypsy Jazz players know this stuff inside out, and that’s how they learned it without a jot of chord scale theory….

So the pedagogical value of this approach is pretty apparent to me; but I’m quite interested in how the other approach works for people if they’ve learned that way. I know Adam Rogers uses it and he’s one of my favourites.

[Tal_175]

That's D E F G A B C#.

I tend to think of it as "a G7 scale with a #11". I know the notes in G7, I know the #11 and I know where they all are. What could possibly go wrong?

But, for someone who has worked out Dmelmin fingerings already, they'll probably prefer thinking Dmelmin.

I think the difference is that, if you think of it as G7 with a #11, your lines are more likely to sound dominant-ish (in a mixolydian sense).

Melodic minor has its own color/sound mostly characterized by the augmented triad and the leading note. So if you think D melodic minor, IMO you're more likely to find lines that bring out that MM color.

I see scales in terms of the diatonic chord arpeggios within them. So D melodic minor is D minMaj7, FAug7, C#min7b5 etc. I wouldn't necessarily think to build lines based on these arpeggios if I'm thinking G7 with a #11.

[kris]

And that is why there are so many books on the use of the minor melodic scale.
Adam Rogers learned a lot from Barry Galbraith who wrote a book with minor melodic and minor harmonic scale exercises.
It would be good to know the modes of minor melodic scale.

[WILSON 1]

Anyway this thread has devolved into scale talk lol.

Questions like the interminable ‘what scale do I play over this chord?’ would be indeed forever banished if people just call the scale the same thing as the chord.

Ok, you're losing me here.

Do you mean I can't play Eb7 over Cm in a minor blues when on my way to Fm?

And that I can't play Bb7 over Fm on the way back to Cm?

[mr. beaumont]

You can play anything over anything if you resolve it well

[Christian Miller]

Ok, you're losing me here.

Do you mean I can't play Eb7 over Cm in a minor blues when on my way to Fm?

And that I can't play Bb7 over Fm on the way back to Cm?

You can add in chords and then play them if you want. Or not. Up to you!

don’t mistake me for someone who tells people not to do things. I’ll leave that to the Mark Levines of this world lol.

What chord scale theory does that I think is a little unnecessary is write out the fully extended version of the chord, transpose 9, 11 and 13 down an octave and give it a stupid name.

(mostly)

[kris]

You can play anything over anything if you resolve it well

"If you don't know what to play,play nothing."
MD

[Christian Miller]

And that is why there are so many books on the use of the minor melodic scale.
Adam Rogers learned a lot from Barry Galbraith who wrote a book with minor melodic and minor harmonic scale exercises.
It would be good to know the modes of minor melodic scale.

What is knowing the modes?

Well aside from arguing whether it’s Locrian natural 2 or locrian sharp 2, the main thing is application.

So, for example, knowing that Lydian dominant is mode IV of melodic minor is the same thing as knowing you can sub a dominant chord with a min6 chord with a II V relationship - just without the wanky terminology. This is what Wes, Django etc etc all understood. It falls out of the basic guitar grips.

In this way you can play all that melodic minor harmony and never know what a Lydian Dominant is. The books I think are often there to make it seem harder than it is.

You can also play the m6-dim of course.

I also reckon this is also why Wes loves to play whole tone on minor; that Aug shape in the m(maj7). Don’t be ashamed to think like a guitar player. Scales make more sense on piano; the instrument is a big scale going left to right, how else are you going to think about it?

We otoh are lifers in the matrix of confusion; so it follows we are shapes guys.

[mr. beaumont]

I do think the biggest lie in jazz is treating scales and chords like different things. Sometimes I think it's taught that way to beginners as a way of sly gate-keeping.

[kris]

You can add in chords and then play them if you want. Or not. Up to you!

don’t mistake me for someone who tells people not to do things. I’ll leave that to the Mark Levines of this world lol.

What chord scale theory does that I think is a little unnecessary is write out the fully extended version of the chord, transpose 9, 11 and 13 down an octave and give it a stupid name.

(mostly)

Therefore, things must be simplified and the ears must be used.

[Christian Miller]

Therefore, things must be simplified and the ears must be used.

TBH I think the 13th arps are more immediately useful musical resources too. Think Wes!