Chord functions. What are they for?

[kris]

Also, the #11 sound.... old school functional harmony has plenty of 'bVI7#11' (French Sixth chords) in it. While jazzers might regard the bVI7 chord as a tritone sub for II7, this is not how it is understood in trad music theory.

Old school jazz, the #11 is often added to the IV7 and bVI7 by default; a good example of the former is Limehouse Blues and the latter is Out of Nowhere, both popular pre war standards.

A question I would ask is; was A Train the first tune to do this on II7? I can't think of a counter example off the top of my head. Anyone?

"Exactly Like You" 1930

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

"Exactly Like You" 1930

There isn't a #11 in the melody over that II7, though, eh?

Chris was asking "was A Train the first tune to do this [the #11] on II7?"

[kris]

There isn't a #11 in the melody over that II7, though, eh?

Chris was asking "was A Train the first tune to do this [the #11] on II7?"

I know it...but there is a secondary dominant.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I know it...but there is a secondary dominant.

I Got Rhythm came out in 1930, too.

[Christian Miller]

Rags, I know what the word "function" means and that it has many senses (musical and otherwise). I'm asking Christian what sense he was using because it wasn't clear to me from his question, and I'm trying to answer his question. On account of he awaits my every utterance with 'bated breath, and I don't want to let him down.

Yep, that’s a reasonable question. I mean Reimannian functions, subdominant, tonic etc. But we’ve also wended talking about v/v etc. I think most educators in jazz mix up the terminologies.

I could not function as a musician without Roman Numerals. They are the single most important theory thing I’ve ever learned.

[Christian Miller]

"Exactly Like You" 1930

Not sure if you understood what I meant. That doesn’t have a #11 on chord II7 in the melody. Neither does Me Myself and I, Undecided etc.

OTOH limehouse, Out of nowhere does but not on a II7 chord.

v/v is one of the most common chords in tonal music.

[emanresu]

Whenever I have being composing something. I have NEVER... NEVER thought a single thought about what function is this or that.

[Christian Miller]

Whenever I have being composing something. I have NEVER... NEVER thought a single thought about what function is this or that.

neither did Bach haha

[kris]

Not sure if you understood what I meant. That doesn’t have a #11 on chord II7 in the melody. Neither does Me Myself and I, Undecided etc.

OTOH limehouse, Out of nowhere does but not on a II7 chord.

v/v is one of the most common chords in tonal music.

Finding such a tune is a big challenge.

[Christian Miller]

Finding such a tune is a big challenge.

Yeah I can't think of one.

[ragman1]

Rags, I know what the word "function" means and that it has many senses (musical and otherwise). I'm asking Christian what sense he was using because it wasn't clear to me from his question, and I'm trying to answer his question. On account of he awaits my every utterance with 'bated breath, and I don't want to let him down.

Ah, right. Well, apparently the answer is

Reimannian functions

which, naturally, comes as no surprise at all

Thank you for your patience.

[Clint 55]

Whenever I have being composing something. I have NEVER... NEVER thought a single thought about what function is this or that.

You never thought to use a major chord for a happy sound or a minor chord for a sad sound? Sure.

[emanresu]

You never thought to use a major chord for a happy sound or a minor chord for a sad sound? Sure.

I think you think about the word "thought" differently

But not really. It was pretty much always first choice to hope for lightbulb.. if it sucked, just tried out others until a working one comes along.
Feeling out stuff is not really "thinking".

[kris]

Tune- Killer Joe.
How to understand the movement of two chords C7-Bb7-C7-Bb7?
In improvisation, I think f.ex:
C7#11 - Bb7#11 ... G min mel-F min mel

[Christian Miller]

Tune- Killer Joe.
How to understand the movement of two chords C7-Bb7-C7-Bb7?
In improvisation, I think f.ex:
C7#11 - Bb7#11 ... G min mel-F min mel

Well this is the type of stuff where I think ‘is it worth pushing square pegs into round holes?’

The function of the Bb7 chord is clearly a ‘backdoor dominant’ and this chord was obviously super common in the 60s as well, think Beatles. But to relate it to a V-I? I’m not so sure it has that much value.

It strikes me that the 60s is when the trad V-I cadence started to lose prominence in song writing. The leading note really lost prominence. The V7sus4 became super common too.

[Alter]

..

[cmajor9]

I’m surprised I haven’t seen anyone explicitly mention what I’d consider one of the most important uses of chord function: a way of understanding the relationships of a tune’s worth of chords regardless of the key you’re playing in. This is important not only for transposing, but for keeping a “mental map” of the tune.

Kris kind of gets at this in his comment in Post #2.

This is effective whether or not the tune is using the traditional harmonic functions inherited from classical music.

[mr. beaumont]

Re: Special Function chords--

Yes! That's kind of my go to way of looking at a tune...first I break it into I/i and V, then I look for chord that are "special," and need to be addressed carefully.

Re: Chord function for transposing--

In my opinion, that's the most useful use of "functions," or maybe better to say "relationships," But I'd also say probably the reason nobody mentioned it here is because that's not what the OP is really about, or at least, not how I took it.

[Christian Miller]

@emanresu

[John A.]

Re: Chord function for transposing--

In my opinion, that's the most useful use of "functions," or maybe better to say "relationships," But I'd also say probably the reason nobody mentioned it here is because that's not what the OP is really about, or at least, not how I took it.

I did.

[Christian Miller]

If not playing bluesy and pentatonic stuff over it, my standard approach for this Bb7 is (same as the last chord on Freddie the Freeloader), to see it as a "special function dominant chord", bVII7, so my go to scale would be Lydian b7 (alternatively named Mixolydian #4).

Both names are stupid. It off course should be called a dominant #4 scale ;-) Or - hey how about 7#11 scale?

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU BERKLEE - CALL THE CHORD AND THE SCALE THE SAME THING YOU NUMPTIES

Holdsworth had the right idea.

[mr. beaumont]

Both names are stupid. It off course should be called a dominant #4 scale ;-) Or - hey how about 7#11 scale?

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU BERKLEE - CALL THE CHORD AND THE SCALE THE SAME THING YOU NUMPTIES

Holdsworth had the right idea.

Definitely agree.

[kris]

Emily Remler was very clear about dominat chords.
All of this was related to the use of the minor melodic scale.
She divided the dominant chords into two groups: static and those that need to be resolved.
C7 -there is no alteration-you play G mel min/on this scale there is the note F# which is in the C7#11 chord-static
C7alt -need to resolve-you play Db mel min/ this scale includes all the altered notes of the C7alt chord.
It has always suited my improvisation.

[emanresu]

You never thought to use a major chord for a happy sound or a minor chord for a sad sound? Sure.

One thing that bugs me and this gets away from functional thinking.

When you have a happy tune.. should be completely happy and upbeat and energetic and .....
So, what are the sad chords doing in there? Yeah, the home chord is a maj, most could be maj. But a bunch of min chords may be in there and they are NOT sad at all.

Just that, in my 20s, I was thinking about whats good and awesome in music. And noticed when a chord comes, say.. a solid minor triad.. And it does not sound sad but does something.. something else than plain "sad".. that you don't hear it as "sad", then. Hm
I never finished that thought but you know, sad&happy chords are like.. black pepper on tomato. Pepper by itself is one thing, with tomato its something completely different.

[kris]

One thing that bugs me and this gets away from functional thinking.

When you have a happy tune.. should be completely happy and upbeat and energetic and .....
So, what are the sad chords doing in there? Yeah, the home chord is a maj, most could be maj. But a bunch of min chords may be in there and they are NOT sad at all.

Just that, in my 20s, I was thinking about whats good and awesome in music. And noticed when a chord comes, say.. a solid minor triad.. And it does not sound sad but does something.. something else than plain "sad".. that you don't hear it as "sad", then. Hm
I never finished that thought but you know, sad&happy chords are like.. black pepper on tomato. Pepper by itself is one thing, with tomato its something completely different.

...look Summertime -it is in mnor key.Summer is probably a happy time of the year.