Solfege, in-between notes

[JazzinNY]

I've started studying solfege, and really it's a great concept. One thing, though -- as I understand it, you are supposed to name the non-diatonic names one thing on the way up, and different on the way down:

Do Di Re but
Re Ra Do.

Now, this seems to me, it's over-complicating and defeating the point of assigning a name to a sound.

I'm very tempted, for my own use, to just use one name. But maybe I'm missing something???

[ColinO]

Sharps and flats?

[matt.guitarteacher]

It makes the least sense maybe when singing chromatic scales, but most music doesn't have straight chromatic scales.

When you're dealing with 8 notes at a time, it's counterintuitive to use the equivalent of E Eb in place odd E D#. Also, raised tones have a bright ee vowel, which sound like leading tones. (Same for the 2 diatonic half steps by the way). Once you learn 7 basic syllables, it's actually much simpler to alter them than to use 12 separate syllables.

[christianm77]

It's to do with melodic direction.

Di-->Re
Ra-->Do

That's the way I think of it. If you were singing, you might use different intonations in some situations to get truer chords.

Today, however, I was accused of being 'the kind of person who cares about enharmony' which while certainly true, kind of smarts a bit.

[christianm77]

It makes the least sense maybe when singing chromatic scales, but most music doesn't have straight chromatic scales.

When you're dealing with 8 notes at a time, it's counterintuitive to use the equivalent of E Eb in place odd E D#. Also, raised tones have a bright ee vowel, which sound like leading tones. (Same for the 2 diatonic half steps by the way). Once you learn 7 basic syllables, it's actually much simpler to alter them than to use 12 separate syllables.

That's an amazing point - I never thought of that.

[christianm77]

Incidentally in just intonation, leading notes are flatter than in equal temperament - counterintuitively.

That's to make for truer intonation on chords.

However Pablo Cassals played them sharp, letting the melodic shape take over.

[matt.guitarteacher]

That's an amazing point - I never thought of that.

Likewise, la fa ra etc are darker vowels, flatter...

[matt.guitarteacher]

To the OP again, imagine this. "mi re do re mi mi mi" could just as well be something like "se mi re mi se se se". Both have the same intervallic relationship. :-)

One is pretty easily sung by children who know how it works, while the other would be very difficult , because it is counterintuitive and mostly nonsensical to represent a simple tonal melody without reference to the actual tonal center. You lose a lot of intervallic relationships by making a major second "look like " a third etc.

[JakeAcci]

it's important to note function as well

lydian gets #4, not b5. a m7b5 chord will likely wind up with a b5 and nat 4, not 4 and #4

dom #9 is not a domininant wiht a minor third.

you get these things wrong and nobody will hire you for that $45 cocktail gig

just kidding

but function plays just as much of a role in this discussion as melodic direction.

[christianm77]

dom #9 is not a domininant wiht a minor third.

Yes it is in fact! 7b10 haha

Don't give me that altered scale rubbish ;-)

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yes it is in fact! 7b10 haha

Don't give me that altered scale rubbish ;-)

:-)

Is the consensus basically that there's no way to "functionally" reconcile altered scale? So we just call two of the tones 5ths and two of the tones 9ths etc. Anyway, it's pretty much consensus now. Like this constant snotty drumbeat of people saying "an historic" in American English, even though the H is pronounced.

at what point does it not even matter what "right" is ? :-)

[christianm77]

:-)

Is the consensus basically that there's no way to "functionally" reconcile altered scale? So we just call two of the tones 5ths and two of the tones 9ths etc. Anyway, it's pretty much consensus now. Like this constant snotty drumbeat of people saying "an historic" in American English, even though the H is pronounced.

at what point does it not even matter what "right" is ? :-)

Well that note comes from a place of being 'wrong' to start off with from a WEAM standpoint. It's a false relation coming out of using, for instance, blues melodies on functional harmony. So in a sense there is no 'right way' to think of it harmonically.

In all seriousness, I think if you write 7b10 or 7b3 in a chart you are either a beginner or a total jerkass. 7#9 is understood by everyone at a glance. Why confuse people?

But, in general if someone played an A#/Bb on say a G7 chord in the history of jazz up to the 60s it would have been a Bb, that is to say a minor against dominant sound.

David Leibman gives the example (IIRC) of a blues scale note (b7) against a V7 chord in his book Chromatic Approach ot Jazz Harmony, something that comes up very frequently in the music right from the early days. Ellington, for example.

When playing bop, I think of that chord as a false relation so to speak. Same sort of thing - you are playing a melody in C natural minor over a G7b9 chord - the natural minor and harmonic minors can be chopped and changed freely in bebop lines over dominants. Good example is Donna Lee.

In Jimi Hendrix's case, it's a blue note (b3) in the top voice over a dom7 chord. Really Purple Haze is E7b10 haha.

But you you wouldn't be reading those chords in charts AFAIK. It was melody over chords. Parker playing a Bb over a G7. All the US concept stuff came later AFAIK.

[christianm77]

Also it happens in Tudor polyphony:

b3 on a major triad, for instance. Famous example is the original harmony of the Coventry Carol, often 'corrected' in later editions.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yeah. Reg talks in some of his videos about some of those things where it's basically an eight note scale, like Dorian plus mixolydian at the same time. He's played a long time and talks about the evolution of concepts. Apparently, one of the early things back in the day was to add a #9 to harmonic minor. Says that's basically what he does, if he plays harmonic minor on something.

[christianm77]

BTW the hexachord thing is interesting - the way solfege used to be.... Quite counterintuitive for modern musicians, but there is a sense to it.

[christianm77]

Yeah. Reg talks in some of his videos about some of those things where it's basically an eight note scale, like Dorian plus mixolydian at the same time. He's played a long time and talks about the evolution of concepts. Apparently, one of the early things back in the day was to add a #9 to harmonic minor. Says that's basically what he does, if he plays harmonic minor on something.

What he adds D# to a C harmonic minor scale? ;-)

Or you mean Bb/A#?

That's interesting. It's dead obvious I think if you spend time looking at bebop, but a lot of people like to view these things as half whole scales etc.

This exactly what I do. The Barry Harris framing of this is slightly different for some very specific reasons, but the note choices it spits out are exactly the same.

[matt.guitarteacher]

What he adds D# to a C harmonic minor scale? ;-)

Or you mean Bb/A#?

yeah. Talking about the V7 of.... Sorry... :-)

That's the context he was using....

[JazzinNY]

Well, a lot of subtleties here to digest, thanks.

In terms of context, this is mainly for doing etudes (based on the book "Jazz Ears", which is excellent).

So I'll be jumping from Ti down to Fi, say, and I don't see any point in "Fi" having a second name to worry about. So in the end, I'm gonna play with it both ways for a few more days, then make a decision.

[Lionelsax]

Only Catholic countries and Orthodox countries use Do(C) Ré(D) Mi(E) Fa(F) Sol(G) La(A) Si(B)
In Germany, H stands for B, and B for Bb.
Letters came before the syllabus.

Treble Clef, is a capital G, Bass Clef is a capital F.

I've got a joke for my pupils : "How Anglo-Saxons say Do ? They say C !"

Every note begins with a consonant (attack) and ends with a vowel (sustain).

First it was Ut Ré Mi Fa Sol La Si but Ut couldn't be sung correctly, so they replaced it with Do.

Ut queant laxis resonare fibris Mira gestorum famuli tuorum, Solve polluti labii reatum, Sancte Iohannes.

[christianm77]

There was no Si in the original system in fact. It was pretty complicated... Semitones in the scale were always solfeged as mi regardless of where they happened... In other words Mi is always the leading tone.

So for example, you would sing the major scale like this:

Do (Ut) Re Mi Fa Sol Re Mi Do

This might seem completely bonkers to the modern mind, but that's how they did it right up to the 19th century - basically by having three 6 note scales (hexachords) that started on Do, Sol, and Fa. In the example above we use a hexachord on Do and one on Sol to get the full scale.

[Lionelsax]

There was no Si in the original system in fact. It was pretty complicated... Semitones in the scale were always solfeged as mi regardless of where they happened... In other words Mi is always the leading tone.

So for example, you would sing the major scale like this:

Do (Ut) Re Mi Fa Sol Re Mi Do

This might seem completely bonkers to the modern mind, but that's how they did it right up to the 19th century - basically by having three 6 note scales (hexachords) that started on Do, Sol, and Fa. In the example above we use a hexachord on Do and one on Sol to get the full scale.

Do you live near a nuclear power plant Christian ?

[PMB]

:-)

Is the consensus basically that there's no way to "functionally" reconcile altered scale? So we just call two of the tones 5ths and two of the tones 9ths etc. Anyway, it's pretty much consensus now. Like this constant snotty drumbeat of people saying "an historic" in American English, even though the H is pronounced.

at what point does it not even matter what "right" is ? :-)

When government officials start talking about 'alternative facts'? :-)

[Lionelsax]

There was no Si in the original system in fact. It was pretty complicated... Semitones in the scale were always solfeged as mi regardless of where they happened... In other words Mi is always the leading tone.

So for example, you would sing the major scale like this:

Do (Ut) Re Mi Fa Sol Re Mi Do

This might seem completely bonkers to the modern mind, but that's how they did it right up to the 19th century - basically by having three 6 note scales (hexachords) that started on Do, Sol, and Fa. In the example above we use a hexachord on Do and one on Sol to get the full scale.

But you're right about B or Si.

[Lionelsax]

There was no Si in the original system in fact. It was pretty complicated... Semitones in the scale were always solfeged as mi regardless of where they happened... In other words Mi is always the leading tone.

So for example, you would sing the major scale like this:

Do (Ut) Re Mi Fa Sol Re Mi Do

This might seem completely bonkers to the modern mind, but that's how they did it right up to the 19th century - basically by having three 6 note scales (hexachords) that started on Do, Sol, and Fa. In the example above we use a hexachord on Do and one on Sol to get the full scale.

You've got everything you want here !

[christianm77]

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