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Collection of tunes that feature the bVI7#11 resolving straight to I (major or minor)
I'm Beginning to See the Light
Out of Nowhere
Lullaby of the Leaves
Skylark (B)
Nice Work if You Can Get It (B)
I think of it as a really 1920s/30s sound...
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12-08-2017 03:55 PM
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Ab lydian dominant is Ab Bb C D Eb F Gb. It is indeed one note away from C natural minor -- that Gb instead of G. And, it would take some care to make G sound good against Ab7#11. So, maybe the easy way to think about it is that you're still in Eb, except you're going to flat the G.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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OK, I have the realbook chart in front of me now.
This tune is a mix of functional and more colouristic harmony. I'm going to point out the bits that are not conventional functional harmony to save space, cos that's just bebop. :-) You can approach those changes in a CST way if you want, but its not how they were conceived, perhaps.
Ebmaj7 | Bbm7(/Eb) | Ebmaj7
Eb Ionian/Lyd --> Eb Dorian --> Eb Ionian/Lyd
G7sus4 | A/G | G7sus4
G Mixo --> Lydian (Dominant) --> G Mixo - like a modal interchange on a pedal?
F7sus4 | G/F | F7sus4
Same thing on F
Em7 A7 | Eb7 | Am7 D7
OK this is actually functional - the Eb7 is a tritone for A7, The progression is A7 | A7alt | D7, really.
Bm7 | E7 Dm7 | C#m7 | F#7 | Bm7 | Am7/B | Bm7 | Am7/B | Bbm7 | Bb7b9 | Bb7sus4(b9) | Dm7b5 G7b9
A little more obscure at first glance. So non resolving II-V's?
Bm7 E7 Dm7 - a little odd, but basically I think of this as E7(9) going to Dm7
C#m7 F#7 Bm7 - ii-V-I, obv. A major ii-V into minor. Does happen... (Invitation) - I think B melodic minor/dorian, basically.
Am7/B Bb-7.... OK here, Am7/B is a bit like like an altered dominant with no 3rd?
B A C E G - so 1 b7 b9 5 b6
It's resolution into Bbm7 therefore makes sense.
Bb7b9 - Bb7sus4(b9) - typical minor key dominant. Strongly suggests Mixo b9 b13 or whatever you kids call it now. Spanish!
Doesn't resolve into the expected Ebmaj, instead we get a ii-V into relative minor.
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Oh Ab-7 Db7 Fm7.... Ignore Ab-7 and you have that Aug6 thing again....
BTW Herbie studied classical composition
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That's what I meant.... The Grant Green lick! :-) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Some charts have Abmaj7#11... I'd need to check out the recording.
In classical theory that note would be considered an F#, which I was blathering on about about 10 pages ago... The scale would then by C Hungarian Minor (interesting!)
You could totally go Abmaj7#11 Ab7#11 as a voice leading thing.
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Dolphin Dance...alright! Jumping into the deep end!
(I was shocked folks thought Pee Wee was obscure though--it's on Sorcerer for crying out loud! Doesn't that one come in the mail with a sample box of Tide as soon as you get into jazz? But I digress...)
My "jazz mentor" was obsessed with this tune...as Christian pointed out, a real nice example of a tune that has both functional bits and some non-functional bits...and four "what the hell chords" at the end of the form
Anyway, he HATED the RB changes...he had his own chart of everything, of course, but when I wanted to learn this one, he gave me the Aebersold chart, and then of course said "use your damn ears, though."
This song still kicks my butt, completely.
This is a really good tune to sit down at a piano with and just "see" what notes work on each chord. It's kinda surprising in spots. There' ambiguity all over the place (Ab7#11 or Abmaj7#11? Yikes, they both work...nice place for lydian triad pairs, let somebody else figure out what that 7th is supposed to be)
I'll try and collect thoughts and report back more later...one thing though definitely...the pedal tone at that Bm7 Am7 deal is definitely E.
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Christian, thanks for furthering the discussion! Originally Posted by christianm77
I was interested in this to try to figure out if CST offers something beyond my chordtone/extension/tonal center approach. Or stated another way "all white keys, except ...."
Basically, we seem to be in the same ballpark (although our posts only overlapped for the first 4 bars).
To oversimplify (and inadvertently start a war) we both seem to be dividing up harmony into major, minor and dominant. The major chords get Ionian or lydian. All white keys except maybe raise the 4th).
The dominant chords are all start out mixolydian (all white keys starting on G) with adjustments made for the sus4, and the altered 5s and 9s.
The minor chords vary a bit more, with some seeming like tonics, some iim and the occasional mystery. But, for most it comes down to 1 b3 for sure, and then pick your 2, 6, and 7.
The m7b5 feels like a special case. It is the 7th degree of the major scale, but usually is sounds better to play a #2, which makes it a mode of melodic minor. In a minor iim7b5 V7b13 (or alt) Im or Imaj, you can ignore it and go right to the dominant, with alterations, especially the b13, I guess, but that might require some adjustment by ear.
The only place I hear it differently is the Am7/B (which the Sher legal RB has as Cmaj7/E). The Am7/B is actually part of a 4 bar phrase. It's Bm7 to Am7/B -- twice. And then, the bass note changes to Bb and the chord tones all move up a half step. And, that Bbm7 could be notated as the the top of the tune. It sounds like a 4 bar intro to the Cm7.
So, the Bm7 Am7/B has a kind of turnaround quality. There are tunes which end a half step below where they begin, so the start of the second chorus sounds like a half step modulation. That's the way I hear this. So, I lean on the chord tones on the Am7 and then raise something a half step for the Bbm7.
And, then, the other message here seems to be that of the zillion rules spelled out by Nettles, we aren't using many. Basically, it seems like some knowledge of chord tones, tonal centers and usages gets you within a half step on a note or two, and you ought to be able to adjust those by ear. I still end up feeling pretty comfortable with "all white keys, except ...". At least, until I want to play some more modern outside sounds, at which point, the issue seems like it's hearing bitonality better than I can at present.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-08-2017 at 09:19 PM.
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I defer to your better knowledge of the tune re: Am7/B
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Interestingly, I hear that as the most "modal" floating part of the piece.
The "weird chords" are the turnaround...even though Coleman and Hancock START their solo there, iirc.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 12-08-2017 at 09:23 PM.
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These changes look a LITTLE
better:
Don't just go chord to chord. Look at the home key and figure out those alterations to the major scale. Use the melody as your guide.
Melody says Eb major--yupe, I agree with ionian (RPjazz)
Bbmin7 Here is where we get interAStin okay...
Eb G Bb D
+
Bb Db F Ab
Let's see, the 7-->b7 could be dorian, but my man HERB loves tension and release... this looks kinda like a hidden V
hmmm, you see it?
Bb Db D Eb F G Ab
This is a octatonic from what I heard back in college
Mixolydian with a #9
Or maybe an altered if you twist it
okay going to that D-7b5 --> G7
remember that you are coming from Ebmajor (ionian)
Eb F G Ab Bb C D -- see what I did there (start on the root of the key) still ionian
to the G7
Eb F G A Bb C D Eb F G (there is our friend, Mista Lydian)
Abmaj7#11
Eb G Ab Bb C D Eb F G (more Eb ionian)
Skip C-7 and go to D7
Eb F# G A Bb C D (looks dim sum to me
)
Goes to Gmajor
Eb F# G A Bb B C D ???
See what I am doing? Bruce Arnold taught me how to do that. You can get interesting combinations that work with the ear.
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Also, remember, the first 4 chords aren't solo-ed over...
Listen to Irez--melody is your friend on this one!
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I don't really know this tune, so the amount I can offer on it is limited really.
The melody is the thing. Although - sometimes it isn't. But you have to know it to chuck it out.
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I haven't read through the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been said before.
Harmonic rhythm plays a significant factor in what one can use for soloing. In bebop tunes where the harmonic rhythms are dense (chord change every 2 or 4 beats), I find more success using chord tones and approaches. With the later modal and vamp type tunes and stuff by Chick Corea where you have one chord for multiple bars, one can play more scalular (if desired).
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One way to think about:
Eb7#11 | Am7 D7 | Bm7 | E7 Dm7 | C#m7 | F#7 |
bVI7#11 in G major
II V to G
Dual function Bm7: IIIm7 VI7 in G major and IIm7 V7 in A major
Skipping over temporarily the Dm7 to C#m7, IIIm7 in A major.
One thing that sometimes seems to happen is a resolution going not to the most obvious chord,
but another chord in the same key. In this case C#m7 being in a 3rd relationship to A major.
From this perspective Dm7 is just a minor IV subdominant in A major (borrowed from Am).
Or it can simply seen as descending bass (E D C#) contrary motion to the ascending melody (E F F#).
As to CST analysis of a song:
I would suggest starting with the info the song provides combining the melody and chord symbols as
well as the progression.
It is true that the first 4 bars are not part of the solo form but serve for me to make a point.
The melody G Ab Bb F indicates a ionian sound, that is the starting reference.
Eb lydian is of course possible but creates a A/Ab differential Ebma7#11 | Bbm7 |
You could eliminate that difference by playing BbmMa7 instead.
In the original conception, Ab is a prominent note in the first 4 bars.
In the 2nd 4 bars, going with the Cm7 | Abma7#11 | Cm7 | Am7 D7 | interpretation.
Ab is again a prominent note, derived from Cm (aeolian).
Should dorian be used it creates the differential A/Ab Cm7 | Abma7#11 |
Modes can be used to dial in brighter or darker colors to address a given moment.
They also can be used to accentuate differences or commonalities within a progression.
For me, I try to start from what the source material reveals and go or not go from there.
As to the most obvious mistake in the real book version, there is definitely an E under Bm | Am
and then an Eb pedal tone under the various Bb7 chords.
Alway best to listen and learn from the recordings when possible.
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With Irez’s post I kind of feel he both managed to highlight the limitations of communicating musical ideas in this type of format (because I find it hard to understand straight up - maybe if I was better at hearing written pitches in my head) and secondly, all of this stuff is a bit dry without actually hearing.
You don’t have to have Uber ears to make aesthetic decisions about what scale to play on the Ebmaj7 chord. But to talk about what choice is better theoretically to me feels very dry.
I suppose we can all agree on that?
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I've mentioned this before on other threads, but Jerry Bergonzi's book 'Developing a Jazz Language' does exactly that using 'All the things you are.' See chapter 1. He goes through various starting/ending notes, and going from bar to bar without stopping. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
When you say, 'go through, a bar at a time, how CST informs a solo', what exactly does that mean to you? Are you just trying to analyze it, play through it? Both? What exactly is your goal? Just trying to understand.
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I have been trying to understand what CST is and how people use it. CST seems to bring out the wordsmith in people. I posed the question about Dolphin Dance to try to pin down exactly how people use CST. Not in descriptors, but in the actual notes they would consider in each bar, and why. It's just a tool to make sure that I can fully understand what people are talking about. Originally Posted by Dana
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That was the whole point. You know, job security. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I'm just not playing any music where I could apply CST right now.
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As in the notes as they are written in the melody, or the notes we might use in improvisation? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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The dilithium crystals are overheating.
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Originally Posted by destinytot
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Whichever. I'm simply trying to understand how people are using CST. But, I am frustrated by the language, so I'm suggesting absolutely concrete examples of applications. Which tune? Which chords? Which notes? And why. Originally Posted by christianm77
Thus far, I have been unable to understand to my satisfaction many of the more abstract comments, but the musical examples (exactly which notes to play at a specific bar in a specific tune) are not opaque at all.
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Just a thought, but separating the wheat from the chaff is always a sensible thing to do - and perhaps that goes for CST to such a degree that it would be wiser to dispense with it completely. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Have you ever received advice which you knew perfectly well was excellent, and yet, you couldn't bring yourself to follow it? Originally Posted by destinytot
My current inclination is to consider the possibility that a lot of the CST mystique is unnecessarily arcane terminology and categorization of material which is amenable to simpler explanations.
But, I've also lived long enough to be suspicious of my own tendency to want to dismiss things I don't understand as nonsense. So, I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.
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