Chord scale theory is the opposite of...

[Vladan]

McLaughlin is ... WOW!

VladanMovies BlogSpot

[matt.guitarteacher]

CST is an intelligent Option to NOT playing by 'ear'.

In some ways it is the opposite of Playing by Ear.

The reason I Posted Rick Beatto's Video was to show a very good use of CST and the reason it was a mistitled Video.

Not saying CST is bad or useless- surely it is not basic scales and the ability to Play them in Rhythm and Time have been part of most Musical Pedagogy in Classical for hundreds of years.

But IF you are going to spend thousands of hours learning and Playing CST or Teaching it there are limitations that should be defined and understood.

CST is too vague and cumbersome to force musical lines into new Keys although it can cause a Line to conform to Harmonic Regions and Keys.

Some Theory Books say Key and Scale are synonymous - which is very misleading because Modern Harmony includes all 12 tones in any Key.

CST is great for creating lots of 'Safe Spots ' to explore on the Guitar Fingerboard in the gray area between exploring and 'hearing ' most notes IMO and can be extremely helpful in this way especially when Pentatonic Conversions ( ehharmonics ) are added and Relative Minor enharmonics of 7 Note scales

BUT again IMO when it goes into Modes of Non Diatonic scales - it could be a Rabbit Hole that is not
useful as a 'grab and go ' System .

Because you are going to be Playing many/most of these from a Chord Tone or extension anyway - it makes more sense to Catalog and Interpret and Finger and Practice them from the Viewpoint of the C.O.M. anyway.

So I am saying practice and experiment with different lines off the Chord Tones and Extensions including CST( including Plutonian Minor - the most difficult scale of all..lol ).

1)Play the Chord - THEN play from the Chord Tones and Extensions.

Do NOT play and Practice Scales in Isolation and then try to shoehorn them in during a Gig or Recording .. practice shoehorning them in using (1)
above.

Classical String Parts go over almost every type of Harmony there is and they rarely need Exotic Scales to do it.

CST should be taught with it's limitations understood and explained IMO and it should focus initially more upon Pentatonics because these are the ONLY SCALES that can give the 'Student'( including adavanced ones ) or Improviser ALL CHORD TONES .


Now here is a good demonstration IMO of using CST from an unknown 'Instructor ' who Plays really well...

I don't understand enough about CST probably, but I don't think you understand much more than me.

EdIT: sorry to be confusing. I'm inept with the like button apparently. Always hit it inadvertently. Anyway, among other things, I don't think CST has ANYTHING to do necessarily with whether a player is playing "by ear".

[Stevebol]

Is John playing..............smooth jazz?
Nooooooooooooo!!!!!

[bako]

In some ways it is the opposite of Playing by Ear.

In my experience, improvising melodies and harmonies drawn from various intervallic combinations
(aka modes or CST) against a pedal tone or chord vamp is an excellent ear training exercise with the
proviso of staying mindful.

Chord tones and scales can be viewed as symbiotic note collections.
From this vantage, a chord is a subset of a scale(s) and a scale a superset of a chord(s).

Modes considered comparatively present a continuum of small variations of intervals functioning
within chord families.

Ex. Minor

m7 - 12b3456b7 ..... 12b345b6b7 ..... 1b2b345b6b7 ..... 1b2b3456b7 ...... 12b3#456b7

mMa7 - 12b34567 ..... 12b345b67 ..... 12b3#4567

CST is a framework of sounds and relationships. It is a tool with advantages and limitations.
It is neither a musical panacea or a harbinger of the decline of human expression.

[cosmic gumbo]

Perhaps this has been posted already, but Berklee can tell you what CST is...and isn't. If you play contemporary jazz in 2017, it's just one of those tools you can reference when navigating the harmonic landscape. Nobody wants to play jazz with people who don't use their ears...

Berklee Today | Berklee College of Music

[christianm77]

In my experience, improvising melodies and harmonies drawn from various intervallic combinations
(aka modes or CST) against a pedal tone or chord vamp is an excellent ear training exercise with the
proviso of staying mindful.

Chord tones and scales can be viewed as symbiotic note collections.
From this vantage, a chord is a subset of a scale(s) and a scale a superset of a chord(s).

Modes considered comparatively present a continuum of small variations of intervals functioning
within chord families.

Ex. Minor

m7 - 12b3456b7 ..... 12b345b6b7 ..... 1b2b345b6b7 ..... 1b2b3456b7 ...... 12b3#456b7

mMa7 - 12b34567 ..... 12b345b67 ..... 12b3#4567

CST is a framework of sounds and relationships. It is a tool with advantages and limitations.
It is neither a musical panacea or a harbinger of the decline of human expression.

It’s the end of Western civilisation and you know it.

[christianm77]

How many on this forum can sing the common cst mode choices on chords? In steps, 3rds, 4ths etc?

Good thing to practice, no?

[destinytot]

How many on this forum can sing the common cst mode choices on chords? In steps, 3rds, 4ths etc?

Good thing to practice, no?

[destinytot]

[Robertkoa]

I don't understand enough about CST probably, but I don't think you understand much more than me.

EdIT: sorry to be confusing. I'm inept with the like button apparently. Always hit it inadvertently. Anyway, among other things, I don't think CST has ANYTHING to do necessarily with whether a player is playing "by ear".

I really don't care whether I know much about CST but you didn't get the point I made about forcing a line into different Harmonic Regions and how CST follows Harmony but does not lead it.

And my point about Beatto's video about playing by ear where he uses his ear to identify the COM then INSTEAD of playing by ear ..he merely plays .the Scale aimlessly for each chord.

When Pros play 'by ear' we often Play a line and simultaneously 'prehear ' the ending..or resolution
and nail it in Rhythm ... that's the 'by ear' part .

So if you do that with strong enough melodic cadences you can push the phrase into different harmonic Regions..

Scales only work because of the vertical coincidence
of which chord tones and extensions they contain over the chords.

And very very few people want to hear Musicians play scales.

Most don't Practice scales for stage or recording- it's lines intervallic patterns , interpolated arp and scale fragments..stuff you might actually play..

[matt.guitarteacher]

I really don't care whether I know much about CST but you didn't get the point I made about forcing a line into different Harmonic Regions and how CST follows Harmony but does not lead it.

Right. My point was that you're making arguments about false notions re CST in the first place.

And very very few people want to hear Musicians play scales.

Most don't Practice scales for stage or recording- it's lines intervallic patterns , interpolated arp and scale fragments..stuff you might actually play..

Like this. CST isn't about musicians playing SCALES in performance. Not in the sense you're alluding to. The term "scales" is used in a completely different context. "Chord scales" are PITCH COLLECTIONS, and are most likely NOT played as linear scales in actual performance.

CST certainly is not necessarily amount "exotic scales", the way you've been talking about either. Very often, it's altering a single pitch etc.

[rpjazzguitar]

The more I get acquainted with it, the more I think my problem isn't with CST, it's with the way it is talked about.

I alluded to earlier, posts which specify literally hundreds of things to try It's modes of major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major, diminished, whole tone, hexatonics, pentatonics, each with multiple potential applications. And, when you've finished all that, if you're fortunate enough to be reincarnated as a guitarist, you can start working on more exotic scale options.

I just get overwhelmed - probably because it is just a lengthy list of things I'll never be able to do. I also find the nomenclature annoying, since, for the most part, all we're doing is moving 3rds, 5ths, 7ths and 9ths by half steps in one direction or another. Maybe 6ths too. I wish CST just used chord symbols instead of permutations of Greek modes. Not lydian dominant, but 13#11.

My way of learning, and maybe I'm not alone, is one tune at a time -- and most new sounds get into my mind's ear very slowly. My personal experience is that I haven't often had the experience of using theory to get something new into my playing.

I do find CST somewhat useful when I have to solo over a tune I don't know with unusual chord progressions
I already know the chord tones, but even my limited knowledge of CST can help me find another couple of notes that will work on the COM. Not art, but not clams either.

Obviously, a lot of great musicians got plenty out of it.

I think people talk about it because it's easy to talk about, it may help people understand what they hear on recordings (or at least put words to it) and because it's hard to talk about melody and rhythm.

[christianm77]

Yeah I dunno. When I personally use CST it’s like - I’m going to do a CST thing here. Usually something to do with intervallic lines in the melodic minor modes or some other scale without any ‘funny notes.’

It’s an effect. When I’m outlining changes or playing bop lines it doesn’t really make sense to involve CST, although you can certainly put everything under one umbrella.

[bako]

It’s the end of Western civilisation and you know it.

There are forces at play even more ominous than CST, if you can imagine something so dastardly,
that threaten the existence of civilization east and west. Yes, it is dangerous times that we live in.
The musical choices we make can tip the balance one way or the other, so choose wisely.

[Robertkoa]

OK - got it but When I use Parent Keys for Modes..
Meaning all Diatonic Cmajor Arps etc. are Dorian for Dminor I am already almost using pitch collections.

And substitute Relative Major over Minor and vice versa Transpose the Pentas I am doing that as well.

Seemed like in that Video Beatto just played the scales.

I hear most playing the scales.

[docbop]

I find it easier just to accept CST is just part of an improvisor growing up. Kind of like "the terrible two's", "teenage angst", or puberty. Everyone has to spend some time learning CST, some get stuck there and rest move on to others to experience <fill in the blank> approach. Then as Herbie Hancock and probaly a number of others say "you forget it all and play".

So learn the fundamentals of CST and most important get the sound in your ears, then moving on other improv tools.

[christianm77]

The musical choices we make can tip the balance one way or the other, so choose wisely.

Maybe they can!

[christianm77]

Someone told me this Jonathan Kreisberg quote today: theory cannot substitute language, but language can substitue theory.

[Boston Joe]

Yeah I dunno. When I personally use CST it’s like - I’m going to do a CST thing here. Usually something to do with intervallic lines in the melodic minor modes or some other scale without any ‘funny notes.’

When I use CST, it's generally only if I want to do a purely scalar run up to a target note.

[Irez87]

Short plug for the Ear Training Journal

And yes you most certainly can hear CST (I can't believe I am getting into a CST discussion).

Key point here, so gather round

Many of the true proponents of CST were traditional, bebop, and hardbop practitioners first

Gary Burton--yupe

Pat Metheny--I hate to say this--but yupe (not a fan)

Wayne Shorter--big YUUUPE!

They could thoroughly hear in the traditional language before stretching their ears to hear in CST.

I've used CST to look at how chords alter a harmonic/scalar lining. Look at the non-resolving dominants in "A Day for Wine and Roses"-you can't force a regular dominant 7th over that Fmaj to Eb7 without actually forcing that Ab to stick. Instead, you carry over the A natural from the Fmajor and get that Lydian Dom.

CST can explain how we hear. We just gotta stop with this chord by chord silliness and realize that chords occur ?in time.

If y'all want more of this, come down to the Ear Training Journal-- I can go through entire tunes if that wets your whistle. Or we can have an open discussion on ear training and how it applies to ALL aspects of our playing.

I think the Arnold clip was apt, don't you?

[docbop]

Someone told me this Jonathan Kreisberg quote today: theory cannot substitute language, but language can substitue theory.

The more I read about the old legends and get to hang around some old cats the more I realize how similar learning how to speak as a little kid and learning to to improvise are. Kids hear parents and other older than them speak and start to emulate the sounds. They start making the sounds themselves and start learning certain sound result in good and bad reactions. Then years later they can speak with people and communicate then they go to school and learn the labels of parts of speech and basic grammar. Improv is no different and IMO best learned the same way emulate, observe, and years later learn the theory to get the labels and common grammar of soloing. Some people skip the school part in both speaking and improv but still communicate well because they do a lot of listening and thinking about what they heard making their own rules of language up. In both listening is first and should never stop.

[destinytot]

There are forces at play even more ominous than CST, if you can imagine something so dastardly,
that threaten the existence of civilization east and west. Yes, it is dangerous times that we live in.
The musical choices we make can tip the balance one way or the other, so choose wisely.

Ripples and waves?

[M-ster]

It’s the end of Western civilisation and you know it.

[destinytot]

The more I read about the old legends and get to hang around some old cats the more I realize how similar learning how to speak as a little kid and learning to to improvise are. Kids hear parents and other older than them speak and start to emulate the sounds. They start making the sounds themselves and start learning certain sound result in good and bad reactions. Then years later they can speak with people and communicate then they go to school and learn the labels of parts of speech and basic grammar. Improv is no different and IMO best learned the same way emulate, observe, and years later learn the theory to get the labels and common grammar of soloing. Some people skip the school part in both speaking and improv but still communicate well because they do a lot of listening and thinking about what they heard making their own rules of language up. In both listening is first and should never stop.

Re-posting a great talk on language learning by Chris Lonsdale - and adding a summary:

FIVE PRINCIPLES

1. Focus on content that is relevant: attention, meaning, relevance, memory.
2. Tools: use language as a tool to communicate from day 1.
3. When you first understand the message, you will unconsciously acquire the language.
4. Physiological training (ears - hearing/listening).
5. Psycho-physiological state (‘affective filter’).


SEVEN ACTIONS

1. Listen a lot - 'brain soaking'.
2. Put meaning first - before words (‘comprehensible input’).
3. Start mixing.
4. Focus on core.
5. Get a 'language parent' (i.e. a sympathetic interlocutor, who will (i) try to understand,(ii) never correct, (iii) feedback understanding, (iv) use words students know)
6. 'Copy the face'.
7. Use direct connect – 'same box, different path' (‘schema’).

[Irez87]

The best language parent in our case is getting friendly with a really freaking good jazz musician.

I've been really lucky in that regard living in both NYC and LA.

Finding a jazz mentor is really tough these days. I found a couple, one who is around my age.

Honestly, if it weren't for the small circle of musicians I've met in LA (and my students at school) I'd jump this joint.

LA... well, let's just say it's you not me

I can't wait to hightail it outta this joint. LA ain't me.

Maybe Chi-town was a better fit? Mr. B, what it be?