What is musicality?

**NSJ** · 10-05-2016, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Yes - true confidence though.

It's a funny one, people are really complex. There are many stories about incredibly confident performers who are somewhat shy and quiet in normal life. Miles is one of the fascinating conundrums, many layers.

I mean, look at Holdsworth. How much confidence does he have in his own music ? He always seems to be riddled with self-doubt. .

I say this but I understand that citing a particular and truly exceptional musicians as the "rule" is fraught with danger . People cite Wes Montgomery and Errol garner or chet Baker for the proposition that they don't need to read. That's bullshit, Wes is a one in 1 billion type of player .

The rest of us are way further down the food chain. We need to, if we are serious, try utilize all our experiences and try to find something we can learn from all kinds of toolboxes. I think the most that can be said is encompassed by general principles: always strive to learn, be genuinely humble, try to find meaning and enjoyment in the process of making music ( otherwise, what's the point ?) and most of all, be expressive and learn what it is to be yourself.

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

I often put classical records to my granddad who was not at all a musician or interested an art.. but was very open sensitive person..

So we listened to - I cant remember what - it was Scarlatti maybe... and he suddenly said: why did he change his mind? - I said what? - Why did he changed his mind.. it sounds like he really wanted to lead to something serious something that worried him and then he suddenly changed his mind, like said: ok next time... but why did he do it?

This is also musicality to me... he does not hear sounds, he hears meaning.

There's a moment in the final movement of Beethoven's 9th where the whole orchestra sort of pauses, and the different sections all play this little figure that's just one note repeated twice. Da-daa... da-daa..., etc. I've always heard that as the composer saying to the musicians, "Ready? Woodwinds ready? Brass ready? Strings ready? OK, let's go..." (And by extension, I guess, "Audience ready?")

I agree that musicality is about making something expressive with music. But it doesn't have to be something concrete. Music is an abstract art form, after all, that speaks directly to the emotions, (or the spirit, if you're of a religious bent). What is Coltrane saying in Giant Steps? I have no idea. It makes me feel joyful, and a little dizzy, like a kid running full-tilt and not caring where he's going (but managing to get there anyway). Is that what Trane had in mind? Again, no idea. Is it musical? Certainly.

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The fact that you have an ego in life (who doesn't) doesn't equate to ego in the musical sphere.

In fact Miles is someone I would hold up as an exemplar of ego-less playing.

I've always felt that there was rational egotism and irrational egotism.

Irrational egotism is the kind that can't stand even a small slight. The kind of person who overreacts to even the smallest insult. I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head, but think about an actor who won't do anything that makes him look bad.

Rational egotism is the kind where a person will allow himself to look bad knowing by doing so, he strengthens his enterprise, and brings more glory to himself. The person that I always think of as an example of this is Vince McMahon, the president of World Wrestling Entertainment. He occasionally plays himself as a character in the ring. He's almost always a villain, and almost always ends up getting a humiliating comeuppance. He's certainly an egomaniac, but he knows that by serving the story in that way, he gives the fans something to cheer about, and that ends up making WWE a stronger brand.

I think Jaco and Miles were rational egotists (at least before Jaco's Bipolar Disorder spun out of control). They'd hang back and serve the tune until it was their time in the spotlight. They understood that by playing their role and supporting others, they made the whole, and thus themselves, stronger.

Irrational ego is what makes us go into a tune determined to play our flashy new lick, and then do so regardless of what anyone else is doing. It's saying, "Listen to me, dammit! Ain't I great?"

Rational ego is going into the tune with the lick in mind, but being willing to abandon it if the group goes in a different direction. It says, "I think I've got something to say that's worth listening to."

**christianm77** · 10-05-2016, 01:13 PM

I dunno. All I know is that from a practical point of view, I need to get rid of any desire to 'do something.' Trying to 'do something' is the biggest stumbling block at the moment in my playing.

There is a conscious shaping at the start of a solo which is beneficial. I like Mike Longo's thing - a strong opening statement and following, corroborating statement. After that it takes care of itself and all you need to do is get out of the way. I find that of great practical use.

At least if you've done your homework properly :-)

That said, there are other things you can do when you are more advanced - the Miles style self editing, for example. These can be useful for getting yourself away from ticks or habits that might form in your playing.

But you need to be in the role of observing your playing in a emotionally disinterested but curious kind of way rather than getting caught up in it.

Recording yourself is fun because then you can examine the disconnect between the process and the result.

**Hep To The Jive** · 10-05-2016, 01:15 PM

Musicality is too subjective. Like... i love Vernon Reid, one of my favs, but someone told me once oh, I don't really like him, his playing is not very musical... What's the hell that means? Everyone sees musicality subjectively.

To me, that's one term that is distractive for a musician. You can't worry about something that is out of your control. All we need is a vision how we want to sound. You go and practice your scales, shapes, chords, whatever. The musicality will find its way into it... if you're lucky.

**christianm77** · 10-05-2016, 01:42 PM

I mean, look at Holdsworth. How much confidence does he have in his own music ? He always seems to be riddled with self-doubt. .

Sure. Holdsworth has never developed that professional thing, where a musician will basically put on the smiling face however they think the gig went. I kind of think it's partly out of bloody mindedness as well as self-efacement.

When you think about it Allan's guitar style is really a massive exercise in bloody mindedness. Why not just play a different instrument? :-)

And also he's from Yorkshire. So he's also got a very Northern British sense of humour, which is like the opposite of everything American, which is hilarious given he lives in California.

My favourite introduction of himself on stage: 'Here I am, Allan Holdsworth, Mr personality.'

**christianm77** · 10-05-2016, 01:48 PM

It can often surprise people that players that have apparently mastered their art are riddled with gnawing self-doubt, a sense of awe at the abilities of other players and a burning desire to improve things they don't like about their own playing.

I think the various ways this manifests itself - posturing and vibiness, self-effacement, a professional bland glaze, interest in Eastern religions, alcholism even - are the reactions to this inner turmoil.

And yet in the moment of creation, they can go beyond all of this.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 10-05-2016, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'm no "incredible performer," but I've definitely never had a deal with stage fright. I've always chalked it up less to confidence and more to not being street-smart enough to realize things could go wrong up there.

As someone who has had his share of bad shows as well as good, I don't get stage fright because I know -- the worst thing that'll happen is that I'll move on to the next note or chord or song.

The only time I get antsy is when there's someone in the crowd I want to impress -- an agent we're trying to retain, a fellow guitarist whose opinion I value, another bandleader checking me out for a job. There's that doubt thing again.

What it boils down to, for me onstage, is being inside the moment. When I'm there, the song tells me what it wants and I let it steer me, comfortable that I know my stuff. Brainpower spent second-guessing myself is brainpower not devoted to focus.

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Recording yourself is fun because then you can examine the disconnect between the process and the result.

I usually like my playing better when I listen to the recording than I do at the time I play it. But you're right. I usually open with something that I've "pre-heard" somewhat earlier. (I mean, one tries to pre-hear everything, but for the opening lick, there's usually more time to think about it.) But as Jordan pointed out in one of my showcase forum threads, there are definitely times when I lose the thread.

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

As someone who has had his share of bad shows as well as good, I don't get stage fright because I know -- the worst thing that'll happen is that I'll move on to the next note or chord or song.

The only time I get antsy is when there's someone in the crowd I want to impress -- an agent we're trying to retain, a fellow guitarist whose opinion I value, another bandleader checking me out for a job. There's that doubt thing again.

What it boils down to, for me onstage, is being inside the moment. When I'm there, the song tells me what it wants and I let it steer me, comfortable that I know my stuff. Brainpower spent second-guessing myself is brainpower not devoted to focus.

I used to get TERRIBLE stage fright. I mean, I guess. My hands would shake and such. I didn't "feel" nervous (at least not any more nervous than I feel on an ongoing, continual basis), but I'd have physical nervousness responses.

It's not so bad any more. I still think I play better in private than in public, but I think just having done it a lot, my body is now more like, "Oh, this again."

**mr. beaumont** · 10-05-2016, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I usually like my playing better when I listen to the recording than I do at the time I play it..

Lol, I am 100% exactly the opposite.

**Jonah** · 10-05-2016, 03:47 PM

Musicality is too subjective. Like...

like... extremely subjective.. by the way...

what is objective?

No need to answer.. just a friendly joke....

I think everything about subjectuve is just another step to be comunicative,,,
objective is good for physics but no good for arts.. so free to go.. brand new start there.. after all.. we talk here because we like this music and we like being here...

so lets be as subjective as possible... we should love it

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lol, I am 100% exactly the opposite.

I would imagine most people are. It's always surprising to me. And that's not to say that when I listen to myself I'm like "Oh, I was killin' it!". It's more like, when I'm playing, I'm like, "WTF am I doing?" and when I listen to it, I might allow that I had a tiny inkling of what I might have been doing.

**Jonah** · 10-05-2016, 03:53 PM

There's a moment in the final movement of Beethoven's 9th where the whole orchestra sort of pauses, and the different sections all play this little figure that's just one note repeated twice. Da-daa... da-daa..., etc. I've always heard that as the composer saying to the musicians, "Ready? Woodwinds ready? Brass ready? Strings ready? OK, let's go..." (And by extension, I guess, "Audience ready?")

I agree that musicality is about making something expressive with music. But it doesn't have to be something concrete. Music is an abstract art form, after all, that speaks directly to the emotions, (or the spirit, if you're of a religious bent). What is Coltrane saying in Giant Steps? I have no idea. It makes me feel joyful, and a little dizzy, like a kid running full-tilt and not caring where he's going (but managing to get there anyway). Is that what Trane had in mind? Again, no idea. Is it musical? Certainly.

Probably it makes sense to put a line between abstracy and verbalization... I mentioned it before..

if we cannot (or do not want) express something in words it does not make it abstract...

Meaning is something we have before expression and means we use to to express it

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Probably it makes sense to put a line between abstracy and verbalization... I mentioned it before..

if we cannot (or do not want) express something in words it does not make it abstract...

Meaning is something we have before expression and means we use to to express it

Well, that's getting into issues of semantics and epistemology. I won't pretend to be qualified to opine.

**christianm77** · 10-05-2016, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I would imagine most people are. It's always surprising to me. And that's not to say that when I listen to myself I'm like "Oh, I was killin' it!". It's more like, when I'm playing, I'm like, "WTF am I doing?" and when I listen to it, I might allow that I had a tiny inkling of what I might have been doing.

Sometimes I am astonished at how many notes I play. Possibly not in a good way.

And so many bloody triplets.

But yes, usually when I feel at the time I was 'killin' it' I was actual rushing.

**Jonah** · 10-05-2016, 05:13 PM

Well, that's getting into issues of semantics and epistemology. I won't pretend to be qualified to opine.

no qualification needed (to my mind).

just what we are...

**Thumpalumpacus** · 10-05-2016, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I used to get TERRIBLE stage fright. I mean, I guess. My hands would shake and such. I didn't "feel" nervous (at least not any more nervous than I feel on an ongoing, continual basis), but I'd have physical nervousness responses.

It's not so bad any more. I still think I play better in private than in public, but I think just having done it a lot, my body is now more like, "Oh, this again."

I certainly play better in private than public -- or in front of the red light, for that matter. But once I learnt how to deal with the catastrophizing -- "oh Lord, will I crash and burn?" -- once I got that down, it became a matter of picturing my living room, my comfort zone. Helps it if you start out with a song you've got wired back and forward, as you've no doubt found for yourself. We find comfort in the familiar.

And if I do find some jitters hanging out in the back of my mind, I tell myself that I'm going to cut some throats. Might even make the gesture, one hand open holding 'em down, the other with thumb extended doing the slice. When I clamber onstage, my aim is to hit the audience like wave, a tidal surge carrying them where I want them to be. Solo or in a band, I want to hit them up front with the vibe of, who the hell is this guy? In other words, I talk myself out of it.

Yes, it's cocky, at times, depending on the mood of the crowd and my own mood too. For me, it's about being in my own right headspace, be it aggressive or accepting, supportive or out front. It depends on the gig, right?

But the key, for me, is stepping onstage thinking, "I got this". If I can do that much, the mistakes don't really matter, because I'll be in the groove and we can call the rest "outside".

**Thumpalumpacus** · 10-05-2016, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Irrational ego is what makes us go into a tune determined to play our flashy new lick, and then do so regardless of what anyone else is doing. It's saying, "Listen to me, dammit! Ain't I great?"

Rational ego is going into the tune with the lick in mind, but being willing to abandon it if the group goes in a different direction. It says, "I think I've got something to say that's worth listening to."

If I may paraphrase:

Irrational ego leads us to imposing ourselves upon the song.

Rational egotism leads us to surrendering to it, so that we sound best for it.

Fair enough?

**Thumpalumpacus** · 10-05-2016, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

i love Vernon Reid, one of my favs, but someone told me once oh, I don't really like him, his playing is not very musical... What's the hell that means?

Boy, the second solo in "Cult of Personality" is an all-time fave of mine, largely because of the musical way he uses that Floyd for big, long swoops, and then comes out blistering some hot b5s. Another one from him that tickles my ear is "Funny Vibe".

Be it said, Vernon's a big, big influence on me.

I think a lot of people confuse "musicality" with "melodicism". One need not be diatonic, or attached to the chords at all, to be musical, so long as you let your ears lead the way.

**EJGuitar** · 10-05-2016, 07:13 PM

Musicality is when u got booked for a gig this week. Or when one of your student wanna try again for a couple months.

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

If I may paraphrase:

Irrational ego leads us to imposing ourselves upon the song.

Rational egotism leads us to surrendering to it, so that we sound best for it.

Fair enough?

Yes, exactly!

**Boston Joe** · 10-05-2016, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Yes, it's cocky, at times, depending on the mood of the crowd and my own mood too. For me, it's about being in my own right headspace, be it aggressive or accepting, supportive or out front. It depends on the gig, right?

But the key, for me, is stepping onstage thinking, "I got this". If I can do that much, the mistakes don't really matter, because I'll be in the groove and we can call the rest "outside".

I don't think a little cockiness is necessarily a bad thing. If I'm having surgery, for example, I want my surgeon to be fully confident that he's going to do a good job. If I meet the surgeon and he's all, "Gee, I hope I don't mess this up." that's not going to give me a lot of confidence.

Now, that said, if I'm dealing with a cocky guy, I'd prefer he have a sense of humor about it. Cocky and dour is just an unpleasant combination.

**Hep To The Jive** · 10-05-2016, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by EJGuitar

Musicality is when u got booked for a gig this week. Or when one of your student wanna try again for a couple months.

Woah!
Man, i dig your style. Just naked truth, no BS

**Thumpalumpacus** · 10-06-2016, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I don't think a little cockiness is necessarily a bad thing. If I'm having surgery, for example, I want my surgeon to be fully confident that he's going to do a good job. If I meet the surgeon and he's all, "Gee, I hope I don't mess this up." that's not going to give me a lot of confidence.

Now, that said, if I'm dealing with a cocky guy, I'd prefer he have a sense of humor about it. Cocky and dour is just an unpleasant combination.

I'm thinking the mistakes matter a little more in surgery.