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I have finally figured out that there's a lot fewer patterns that I need to know. I had been learning the altered scale from scratch until I read an aside that it's just the 7th mode of jazz melodic minor. And I learned lydian dominant before I learned melodic minor (funny but true).
Anyways, please help me fill in this useful but non-exhaustive cheat sheet. Also, what am I leaving out? I am not trying to get avant-garde - just trying to play some bop.
Patterns/groups:
-Major
-Jazz melodic minor
-Bebop
-Whole tone
-Arpeggios
Major modes
1. major
2. dor
3. phr
4. lyd
5. mix
6. aeo
7. loc
Jazz melodic minor modes
1. jazz melodic minor
2. ?
3. ?
4. lydian dominant
5. ?
6. ?
7. altered scale
Bebop group
1. major
2. dom
3. minor
4. harmonic minor
Whole tone
1. whole tone
Arpeggios - can you help me prioritize a few?
Maj7
1. maj7
2. maj7b5
3. maj7#5
4. maj9
5. maj13
Dom7
1.
2.
3.
m7
1.
2.
3.
m7b5
1.
2.
3.
dim
1.
2.
3.
Thanks for your consideration!
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03-05-2015 10:13 PM
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Melodic Minor
I-maj7 9, 11, 13..........OK Jazz Minor, Melodic Minor
II-7b9 11, 13 ....................Dorian b9
IIImaj7#5 9, #11, 13 ..........Lydian Augmented
IV7 9, #11,13 ...................Lydian Dom. or Lyd. b7
V7 9, 11, b13 ....................Mixolydian b13
VI-7b5 9, 11, b13 ...............Semilocrian
VII-7b5 b9, b11, b13............Superlocrian, we as jazzers call it an Altered Dominant chord... V7alt.
You need basically the three Minors...
Natural or Aeolian minor, which is the same as Major, right. All scales, arpeggios and chords built on each scale degree.
Melodic Minor... same thing, all scales, arpeggios and chords built on each scale degree
Harmonic Minor... same thing...
Harmonic Major... becoming more common jazz practice.
Symmetrical scales...
both diminished patterns
Whole tone
Pentatonic scales
Blues scales
Bebop
All the chord types are from those scales.
Once you get the scales, arpeggios and chords together, and your fretboard.... your ready to begin creating relationships with different organized guidelines for application.... how to use all that information in a Jazz style.
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I like to plonk melodic minor scales on a theoretical root - so G7 I have Ab melodic minor. May not work everyone.
If you do enough position work, it ends up being the same as knowing the modes. But either way you need to need to know the intervals of the scale.
I do think it's worth thoroughly learning one scale before moving on. I haven't touched diminished for ages, for example... That's the next thing to revisit I think.
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BTW any scale can be turned into a bebop scale. Just add a judicious half step or three to even out the chord tones and you have it. I practice bebop melodic minors, for example.
In a very real sense the diminished scale is a bebop scale built on a diminished seventh that has been turned into a more general scale. 6 and 8 note scales have that rhythmic balance...
That is to say bebop scales progress by step, but increasingly scales in jazz are seen as a source of notes for harmony. I'm sure Reg could explain in more depth, but it's probably worth you just getting down to it and running scales through standards and so forth.
I'm a very arpeggio based improvisor, so I'm consciously having to bring scales back into it. I'm happy with this though, as I think that's the right way round.Last edited by christianm77; 03-06-2015 at 07:37 PM.
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Thanks everyone. I am trying to be more appeggio based and less scale based myself.
Question: first mode of melodic minor would be I m(maj7) 9 11 #13 right?
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Yes but no need to sharp 13
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Without #13 it would just be harmonic minor, right?
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The naming of intervals goes like this :
5 b13 13 b7 7 1
#13 is actually b7. So just saying 13 is correct.
Basically you're right but you just got the name wrong.
So first chord in mel min : 1 mM7 9 11 13
and harm min : 1 mM7 9 11 b13
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Just to add to pushkar000's great explanation...
In jazz many times we use the term b13 to imply an interval as well as a scale degree. I mean really the interval is a b6th, but we talk and spell chords in thirds... anyway all intervals and scales are in reference to Major. The notes of a scale or chord are Major... unless we alter it.
We write or say Minor, Major, Dominant, Diminished etc... And what's even more confusing... The Dominant or b7th is implied when we notate nothing with chords. D7 implies a b7th, right. And we notate Maj7...
It's just what is is...
Cmaj7
Cmin7... b3rd and b7th, min7b5 also has a b5th
C7 is Dominant, a b7th
C6/9 is maj
All extensions... 9th, 11ths and 13ths are always Major... unless notated otherwise
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Thanks folks. Now I just gotta find some time to practice...
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Originally Posted by Reg
great stuff as usual Reg.
i believe that the 11th is perfect as opposed to major, however. it's a compound interval for a perfect fourth.
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This solves everything: learn a lot of tunes, mostly bebop and blues. Practice a lot, with a metronome.
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So I make that out to be about 23 years of preparation to play jazz... Originally Posted by Reg
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This is a great book to get started in jazz soloing.
There's a study group thread for the book here.
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Yes ... or you could transcribe some solos, learn some tunes, work on your time and play with other musicians as much as possible. Originally Posted by Cunamara
So I make that out to be about 23 years of preparation to play jazz...
In defence of Reg's advice, what I am finding after a period of ignoring harmony (I was more interested in rhythm for a few years) and working with what I have mastered, is that one's knowledge of scales or voicings builds up surprisingly quickly.
For example, after 20 years of playing jazz I am finally getting on top of all the drop 2's and 3's, just because it's nice to know them. Spending 5-15 minutes a day on this means my fluency and knowledge has built up steadily over the past year or so, at the same time as I've been working on other stuff, playing gigs, rehearsing. The same with the BH added note scales and melodic minor modes. It's too much all at once, you have to go one step at a time.
I think you can just put it in the oven for a while and leave it to bake.
But really, you can make good music with whatever toolset you have at your disposal. You might only know ten chord shapes, but if you play good music with them, you'll get more gigs then the guy who knows a million chords but can't play them in time, doesn't listen etc...Last edited by christianm77; 03-26-2015 at 07:17 AM.
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Liarspoker, thanks for the book rec. Any other book recs? I am an expert in buying jazz guitar books, not using them, and then buying more jazz guitar books. It's sort of a hobby - a bad one, as it would be cheaper to just play guitar!
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Maybe... depending on how one goes about it.... but generally about 6 months. Wait I don't remember how is jazz played? Originally Posted by Cunamara
So I make that out to be about 23 years of preparation to play jazz...
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Christan quote
"But really, you can make good music with whatever toolset you have at your disposal. You might only know ten chord shapes, but if you play good music with them, you'll get more gigs then the guy who knows a million chords but can't play them in time, doesn't listen etc..."
But part of that equation... playing good music, you know the 10 chords. Gets even tougher when you only know 5...etc...
And of course there are limits as to what good music you can make with those 10 chords. With out time, there are no gigs.
... performance is generally where most want to go. And performance requires skills also. Performance skills of what technical skills you have. Of course there is the aspect of... not many skills... not much to develop into performance skills... hell... jazz is easy...
Pick 10 touring jazz artist... if you were asked to sub at a gig... what would need to happen for you to be able to cover the gig. What "jazz" music would you be able to cover, oldies but goodies, contemporary...hows your reading, if not so good, hows your ears.
Pick 10 jazz venues in your area... same scenario... So is performance really what your after. Maybe your local restaurant or bar gig....what's required, what skills.
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OK.
But when I listen to Benson- I am hearing a lot of Pentatonics, Arpeggios and Arpeggio Fragments, Chromatic Scale Fragments..and a couple of Modes and maybe an Altered Scale ?
A little Whole Tone or Diminished rarely ?
What am I missing ?
Do you really need 43 scales to Play Jazz especially if there are only 12 Tones and you can cover all of them with one 7 Note Scale and one Pentatonic...
And whether it's Plutonian Minor or Dorian you gotta nail the Chord Tones anyway..
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Quite. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
My advice is to transcribe and work stuff out yourself. Seek out a teacher to help you with the analysis if you are really baffled.
If your ears are good enough you will play these sounds without realising... For the rest of us though, it's nice to have them pointed out.
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Reg, you wouldn't say that if someone calls for C9, that that implies a b7? You'd expect them to write C7+9, or what? I've always believed that a 9th chord is built on top of the dominant chord. Maybe not with the 11 or 13; I'm less sure about those... Originally Posted by Reg
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C9 is dominant, and that's what he was saying.
then lists some confusing exceptions: Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Reg
(that is, C6/9 is a major CHORD type) Originally Posted by Reg
(that is...are always major SCALE DEGREE for the 9th itself, still assuming dominant for the 7th). Originally Posted by Reg
It's funny that he was basically discussing how the terminology is confusing and frustrating, and the resulting conversation is slightly confusing as well. :-)Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-04-2016 at 09:29 PM.
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Well if you have the ears like George Benson then chromatic is the only scale you need. For us mere mortals scales are a handy organizational tool. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Benson is basically one of the old school ear players because he started as a singer and learned to play anything he could sing. George knows enough basic terminology so when asked questions he can give Jazz school like answer.
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Yes. Use the Chromatic Scale for everything and leave a lot of big holes along the way and land on a Chord Tone or extension...lol. Originally Posted by docbop
I am definitely "mortal" and need simplified
organizational concepts like Arpeggios and some Scales although I think and frequently play vertically- I don't think I will need 43 different ones....
I am in the process of unifying( for my mind) the Enharmonic 7 Note Scales and linking them to their Subset Pentatonics and the Outside Pentatonics : Parent Major Scale of any Mode plus the #4 Major Pentatonic = entire Chromatic Scale and the I IV and V major Pentatonic ( and relative minor Pentatonics) of any Major Scale or Key are subsets of or = that Scale.
So you can get completely outside or inside easily and all points in between.
Then if you add Arpeggios and playing standard voicings vertically as Arps and stacked and enharmonic Arps...and linear passing Arpeggios...that is a lot of raw material and less obvious " scale playing" IMO .
I think the Pentatonic Scale is a great way to quickly get from Inside ( ALL chord tones)
to outside ( NO chord tones) and there is a Natural Relationship between The Major Scale ( and all Modes) and the Pentatonics ...which should be in a book somewhere...but amazingly has not been fully explained yet in a Book.
Has it ?Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-11-2016 at 10:24 PM.
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