What have you done with the diminished scale?

[bird_lives]

How do you use the diminished scale?

It seems to be of the upmost utility and importance with its theoretical nature and the physical nature of our instrument.

I know that a guitarist (classical) discovered that it was symmetrical (we had a tough theory sequence) but Scofield that guy knows it.

[bird_lives]

I'm listening, I will post my approach in a few days.

Advanced Jazz Guitar improv by Jody Fisher has some good lines to get you started but who hasn't used it over a vamp who hasen't used it in that situation?

[princeplanet]

I look forward to reading the many ways folks use this scale. BTW, "Double diminished" is still just the ol' H/W scale, right? Read this the other day and was confused a little...

[NSJ]

I look forward to reading the many ways folks use this scale. BTW, "Double diminished" is still just the ol' H/W scale, right? Read this the other day and was confused a little...

Take any diminished chord --(well there's only 3 )

C--Eb-Gb-A

move any note down a half step--Eb to D. It forms a dominant 7th chord named after the moved note (eg, D7)--makes sense given that any dom7b9 forms a dim chord from the top 4 notes

take the chord formed after moving each note in the C dim down a half step

D--F--Ab-B

this is also a diminished chord (D dim or F dim or etc)

combine the notes from these two diminished chords to form the "double diminished scale"

B-C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A

[princeplanet]

OK, so that's where the "double" comes from, curious that not every one uses the term. I just think of it as the H/W Diminished.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

well Guys,
that's simply the Messiaen limited transposition mode 2
HB

[docbop]

Something I picked up recently is take a diminished chord and move up any chord tone a whole step and you get all sorts of altered dominants. Fun to play around with.

[ColinO]

well Guys,
that's simply the Messiaen limited transposition mode 2
HB

I love that. I used to use the Nimzo-Indian defence to the Queens gambit back in the day but found that it left me too exposed to an aggressive knight so I abandoned it.

[monk]

Double diminished was the commonly used term in the 50s and 60s. It was so named because the scale contains two diminished seventh chords. That's the term Miles and Coltrane used. In the 1970s the term was gradually replaced by Half-Whole Diminished Scale.

[docbop]

Double diminished was the commonly used term in the 50s and 60s. It was so named because the scale contains two diminished seventh chords. That's the term Miles and Coltrane used. In the 1970s the term was gradually replaced by Half-Whole Diminished Scale.

The other symmetric scale Miles and Coltrane used then the augmented scale (half-step, minor-3rd), I've been playing around with that.

[princeplanet]

Double diminished was the commonly used term in the 50s and 60s. It was so named because the scale contains two diminished seventh chords. That's the term Miles and Coltrane used. In the 1970s the term was gradually replaced by Half-Whole Diminished Scale.

Thanks Monk.

[Philco]

If I'm stuck for an idea when an altered chord arrives I start a half whole scale from the 3rd of that chord. You literally can't go wrong.
Nice tension but can be a little obvious.
If you devise some patterns or string jumps using the same scale it can give you some good starts for altered ideas.

In his autobiography George Benson claims that he heard Jean Luc Ponty play an amazing lick on a gig and asked him what it was. It was the Double Diminished. Benson claims that it opened a whole world of possibilities that he never discovered before.

[docbop]

If I'm stuck for an idea when an altered chord arrives I start a half whole scale from the 3rd of that chord. You literally can't go wrong.
Nice tension but can be a little obvious.
If you devise some patterns or string jumps using the same scale it can give you some good starts for altered ideas.

In his autobiography George Benson claims that he heard Jean Luc Ponty play an amazing lick on a gig and asked him what it was. It was the Double Diminished. Benson claims that it opened a whole world of possibilities that he never discovered before.

Actually you can start it from any chord tone of a 7b9 chord gives you more starting points.

[Philco]

Actually you can start it from any chord tone of a 7b9 chord gives you more starting points.

Indeed. Move your ideas up or down 3 frets at a time. Bingo!

[princeplanet]

If I'm stuck for an idea when an altered chord arrives I start a half whole scale from the 3rd of that chord. You literally can't go wrong.
Nice tension but can be a little obvious.
If you devise some patterns or string jumps using the same scale it can give you some good starts for altered ideas.

In his autobiography George Benson claims that he heard Jean Luc Ponty play an amazing lick on a gig and asked him what it was. It was the Double Diminished. Benson claims that it opened a whole world of possibilities that he never discovered before.

Hey Phil, I know you know your Benson fairly well, so what year do you think GB started using diminished in his lines? Can you think of a great solo example where he used it?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ok, every time I see this thread title I can't help but read it as something like, "Who are you, and what have you done with the diminished scale?" like the line from those old movies....

Sorry...:-)

[Philco]

Hey Phil, I know you know your Benson fairly well, so what year do you think GB started using diminished in his lines? Can you think of a great solo example where he used it?

George is actually a bit of a mystery in regard to his development.
If you listen to the early recordings he is mainly coming from a Jazz Blues direction.
But even then if you look closely you can see that he had incorporated the altered notes in his playing. Even in a straight Jazz blues he would be using the altered notes over the dominants.
I'm guessing that was just the standard vocab for gigging musos back then. Just like a beginning rock player knows his pentatonic it would have been standard basic knowledge to know what to do when that tension chord arrives.

This is all just my musings….

But at that stage he wasn't really burning through complex changes because he wasn't really playing standards like that.
Now fast forward to The GB quartet period.
Fast forward to 49.01 Witchcraft.

Ok so NOW he's burning some changes.
The first chorus he takes is riveted to the chord changes. He follows them exactly and it's hard to play. He's across the strings and economy picking. He's picking up the chord tones and swinging like……he's from another planet.

This is standard 2 5 1 language and he has it down. After the first chorus I think he kind of wanders a bit. Goes back to some of his blues stuff etc.

But somewhere between the early days and just pre Pop days he learned a whole lot of language.
In his book when he talks about the early days he keeps saying how he loved the Parker with Strings album. He could sing the solos. BUT he had no idea what Parker was doing musically. He couldn't understand it. He was playing blues based stuff.
He also mentions a piano player in a bar somewhere who showed him some stuff about substitutions which he claims opened his eyes. Then comes the Jean Luc Ponty double diminished thing.

It's a mystery to me where he learned the language in that period because he knows that language really well……and you just don't magically gain the ability to play fast 2 5 1's by having a good ear.

As far as using the double diminished scale or whatever you want to call it….there are no examples that I can think of. He's never going to play a scale in a row…..well no one does…. but he does use parts of it all the time. He likes to use the first 4 notes of a tritone scale starting on the 3rd of the dominant chord…….arriving at it by descending 3 semitones.
He does use that lick a bit. It's part of a diminished scale. He plays that one on his instructional video.

I don't know…..GB is an enigma. He clearly knows his stuff but where he learned it I just don't know. I mean, can you learn complex 2 5 1 language on the band stand…..really?

[NSJ]

Indeed. Move your ideas up or down 3 frets at a time. Bingo!

Yep. Every diminished chord hides 4 dominant chords behind it. So you can play a diminished scale at each of the chord tones of the dominant.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

I love that. I used to use the Nimzo-Indian defence to the Queens gambit back in the day but found that it left me too exposed to an aggressive knight so I abandoned it.

I can understand that is difficult for an American guitarist to conceive that all the jazz theory didn't directly come from the brains of Trane and Bird.

In the Scriabine and Rimsky-Korsakoff pieces,begin of the 20 th Century.,you can already hear musical sequences with the Half Whole scale,or double diminished,or whatever you call it,but it remains undefined

The first musician to theorize this scale is Olivier Messiaen, as his n°2 mode

He presents that clearly in his book "Technique de mon language musical" in 1944, when Trane is only 19 Y old, and Bird 24.
When he is war-prisonner in the Stalag of Gorlick, Messiaen composes in Jan 1941 "Stalag VIII-A" and "Quatuor pour la fin des temps" ;in those 2 pieces ,you can already hear the Half-Whole tone scale.
In 1941,Trane is 16 years old and Bird 21...
cheers
H B

[GuyBoden]

I can understand that is difficult for an American guitarist to conceive that all the jazz theory didn't directly come from the brains of Trane and Bird.

Maybe, some European Jazz has a very different musical approach than American Jazz, but European Jazz will always acknowledge and celebrate America as the home/birthplace of the Jazz tradition.

[ColinO]

I can understand that is difficult for an American guitarist to conceive that all the jazz theory didn't directly come from the brains of Trane and Bird.

H B

I was just kidding.

[M-ster]

If I'm stuck for an idea when an altered chord arrives I start a half whole scale from the 3rd of that chord ...

I think you mean whole half, rather than half whole. And, yes, from the 3, 5, b7, or b9, as noted by others.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

I love that. I used to use the Nimzo-Indian defence to the Queens gambit back in the day but found that it left me too exposed to an aggressive knight so I abandoned it.
I was just kidding

Checkmate Colin O !

[wolflen]

symmetric harmony is quite a study..the diminished scale can open many doors to finding innovative lines..

the obvious is that the chords produced from the diminished arpeggio are four 7b9 chords..given that the lines may now tempt the use of melodic minor scale runs also..

but the dim scale also hides the tritone scale..in plain sight-four of them! (well ..two actually)

D dim scale: D E F G Ab Bb B Db .. extract the tritone scales from the scale

G tritone.......G Ab B Db D F -- 1 b2 3 b5 5 b7 .. (G7b5 & Db7b5)
Bb tritone......Bb B D E F Ab (Bb7b5 & E7b5)
Db tritone......Db D F G Ab B again..(Db7b5 & G7b5)
E tritone.......E F G# Bb B D again (E7b5 & Bb7b5)


and the four 7b9 chords (no root) from the scale: G7b9 Bb7b9 Db7b9 E7b9

now you have quite a few ways to explore the dim scale..and not have to sound predictable with the minor 3rd interval between each note..there are other ways to use the scale and create some very nice lines..

[grahambop]

what have you done with the diminished scale?

yeah, don't look at me, I never even touched it!