Chord modulation (key changes).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

More to the point, BDLH, there are plenty of tunes that have a section in natural minor complete with a minor v chord for the first part, then go to the relative major. E.g., Little Wing. You don't want the V chord because you aren't going back to i.

There are always exceptions. How about this: extended uses of natural minor are rare, compared to harmonic/melodic minor. My main point is that you shouldn't think of the V7 in a minor key are borrowed or wrong.

[shreddingjoris]

Lol, i'm aware that no one is not "supposed" to view the blues this way. Non the less... I think i made "a point" for a simple I-->IV--->V progression, no? ;-)

If there are any others ways to see this, pls explain :-)!

[jster]

There are always exceptions. How about this: extended uses of natural minor are rare, compared to harmonic/melodic minor. My main point is that you shouldn't think of the V7 in a minor key are borrowed or wrong.

Yes, I agree with that and would even go further. I count all the chords harmonized from the natural, harmonic, and melodic scales as being in the minor key. I just had to jump in here because one of my better tunes has the same key structure as Little Wing and a V7 chord would sound terrible in the A section. Although I work one in after the B section.

[AmundLauritzen]

Just two more things i don't understand...

I get the "substitution" part, III for and IVI for I.
These chord still hold all the notes in de the C major scale.

But then u speak of...
"The first thing we do is to make the VI-chord into a dominant."
Why the VI??? Is this a keychange to D major? Since A7 lays in that key?
Because the note C# of A7 does NOT lay in the C major scale.
I mean a substitude for a I chord is A min7 or Emin7.


After that u make it into a Em7b5. Witch is a keychange as well since there is no Bb. right?

Em7b5 A7 Dm7 G7

That is the first thing jazz musicians do to the I-VI-II-V7 to spice it up.

Learn the cycle of fourths to see how chords resolve in fourths. Whenever they are a fourth away, you can make it into a dominant chord.

You are right, it's not from the key, but listen to it and you'll hear how much more harmonic pull it creates.

A7 is not a key change to D minor, but look at the progression. The next chord is D minor, which is a fourth away.

That's why it works. Look at the last progression E7 A7 D7 G7, play it and listen to it. Then look at the cycle of fourths and you will see it moves clockwise. I think that will explain to you why a chord can be made dominant when the next chord is a fourth away.

[shreddingjoris]

There are always exceptions. How about this: extended uses of natural minor are rare, compared to harmonic/melodic minor. My main point is that you shouldn't think of the V7 in a minor key are borrowed or wrong.

I guess that where it all comes down, is that your statement is a point of view.

Since i'm learning about modulation, i have "at this moment" a point of view, where i try to make everything relate to "chords".

I "think" your pov is from a modal standpoint.

When a chord is II7. That means it's NOT diatonically correct (and yes i stand by that statement, every diatonic scale is still part from a major or a minor scale. Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. Whenever we set a scale as a mode, then those notes can still be "related to the major scale or the minor". Even if we are playing in a mode that is NOT major or minor. At this point i'm not talking jazz btw! So think simple songs.
However when we use a more "exotic" scale, let's say harmonic minor. Then u have a different story. And i THINK that that's your pov.

Correct me if i'm wrong. Because i'm still learning :-).

[shreddingjoris]

That is the first thing jazz musicians do to the I-VI-II-V7 to spice it up.

Learn the cycle of fourths to see how chords resolve in fourths. Whenever they are a fourth away, you can make it into a dominant chord.

You are right, it's not from the key, but listen to it and you'll hear how much more harmonic pull it creates.

A7 is not a key change to D minor, but look at the progression. The next chord is D minor, which is a fourth away.

That's why it works. Look at the last progression E7 A7 D7 G7, play it and listen to it. Then look at the cycle of fourths and you will see it moves clockwise. I think that will explain to you why a chord can be made dominant when the next chord is a fourth away.

Excellent thank u!!! :-)

And yes, it sounds great! But it has to make sense from a theoretical standpoint. Now i see!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think we're converging. It's all good!