Minor 251 Progressions

[docbop]

I'd like to ask a question piggybacking on the original topic of this thread. On the minor 251, I've read that since the diatonic 1 chord of the harmonic minor scale is mM7, it is often played as a triad to keep the sound of the major 7 out of it. I often play a minor 7 chord for the 1 of a minor 251, and I think it sounds fine. However, this would be not be diatonic to the harmonic minor scale, right?

Is it safe to say that the harmonic minor scale is only used for the 5 chord, and the 2 & 1 are still diatonic to the natural minor scale? Or is it just proper to play a minor triad for the 1 of a minor 251 progression?

The way it was explained in school, in Jazz minor is a hybrid of the three minor scales. So typically so you get a ii mi7b5, V7 alt, and i mi7.

The mi-Ma7 chord I would say most commonly used in a series of chord mi, mi-Ma7, mi7, (mi6). You hear it as slash chords and the bass voice running it down, or as an inner voice movement. miMa7 has a nice dissonance to its sound. What I've heard others say that a miMa7 could be carefully used in place of a mi chord except a II chord. On a II the Ma7 is a mi2nd from the root and too much dissonance.

That's my two cents.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

When I want to play a *cool* minor i chord, I often play a min6/9. Maybe I'm just avoiding the whole m7/Maj7 thing.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd like to ask a question piggybacking on the original topic of this thread. On the minor 251, I've read that since the diatonic 1 chord of the harmonic minor scale is mM7, it is often played as a triad to keep the sound of the major 7 out of it. I often play a minor 7 chord for the 1 of a minor 251, and I think it sounds fine. However, this would be not be diatonic to the harmonic minor scale, right?

Is it safe to say that the harmonic minor scale is only used for the 5 chord, and the 2 & 1 are still diatonic to the natural minor scale? Or is it just proper to play a minor triad for the 1 of a minor 251 progression?

Depends on the tune, and the melody...

Sometimes better to think of the ii and V as borrowed from HM as opposed to the whole cadence being HM. If you're soloing HM is only one choice to get you through that move, and not always the most interesting.

[coolvinny]

Somewhat related to this:

I am a beginner, my teacher asked to record a II V I chord sequence (Dm, G7, CM) and improvise over it using notes from CM.
Well no matter how hard I try it just doesn't sound like jazz, I am guessing because I am not playing any altered notes which I am sure he will get to in due time. He also told me the 4 note (F) should be avoided for some chords, I forget which but I did notice it didn't go. My basic question is for each chord in this progression what is appropriate to play besides C major notes and avoid F.

You don't need altered notes to sound jazzy. The phrasing is the main thing - swinging, upbeats, accenting. Lots of great lines out there just contain chord tones. As our band leader tells us repeatedly, "the notes don't matter - think rhythms and try to play phrases". Then he ends with his trademark line of "I like chocolate chip cookies". Lots of listening, especially to bebop.

[jnbrown]

You don't need altered notes to sound jazzy. The phrasing is the main thing - swinging, upbeats, accenting. Lots of great lines out there just contain chord tones. As our band leader tells us repeatedly, "the notes don't matter - think rhythms and try to play phrases". Then he ends with his trademark line of "I like chocolate chip cookies". Lots of listening, especially to bebop.

So i had a lesson yesterday and we worked on the 1-3-5-7 intervals over the II-V-I progression.
At first it was difficult but after a while I got the hang of it.
It seems that it should be easy to play every other note of a scale starting at root notes but it wasn't.
He keeps telling me it is muscle memory and I now am starting to understand that.
I would like to be able play anything without thinking too much about it or hunting for it, but I have a lot of work to do to get there.
He also showed me what you just said, it can sound jazzy with just chord tones.

[ECHOPLEX]

HI JNBROWN,Remember that all twelve notes are viable options but there is a hierarchy which changes over each of the chords.Chord tones are the money notes,followed by scale tones and then chromatic tones.But get those chord tones burned into your fingers and brain to start of with.Even among the chord tones not all is equal,the thirds and sevenths are generally considered better choices over the fifth and root(which is normally covered by the bass anyway).Note the use of the word choices,as a wise musician once said,there are no wrong notes,only poor choices.