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I've recently been doing some studying about minor 2-5-1s and have just learned that they are derived from the harmonic minor scale and not the natural minor scale. Otherwise the 5 would be a minor7, instead of dominant.
My question is, why do jazz tunes use the harmonic minor scale for minor 2-5-1 progressions. Is it just that it sounds better, or is there some other "rule" that jazz follows that I'm unaware of?
Thanks guys!
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06-12-2013 09:40 AM
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The "Harmonic" minor scale is named so because it is used for "harmony." It predates jazz by...a lot.
The resolution from the dominant to the i is much stronger than from v(m) to i....so yeah, it's "better."
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Improvising over a minor 2-5-1, don't limit yourself to just the notes of the harmonic minor scale. For example, the V gets lots of altered notes played against it, and over the i chord, it's more likely to hear the melodic minor with its major 6th.
As for what Jeff wrote, compare the sound of these two chord pairs:
Em Am vs E Am
Which sounds stronger?
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This is not a jazz thing, you should study a traditional harmony text to get the whole story.
It's better to think the other way around... minor key harmony is not derived from harmonic minor, but rather harmonic minor is derived from minor key harmony.
It's really just about raising the third on the V chord to get a dominant. That note is the 7th of the minor scale.
Harmony and Voice Leading Aldwell Schachter
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There's also the question of raising the 6th scale degree, as well, if you're ascending to the root note on the i chord. From what I'm learning in my theory studies right now, you typically don't alter the tonality over the pre-dominant, reserving the tension for the switch to the dominant.
Originally Posted by RyanM
The "safe" mode is to just use your 1357 tones over each chord, and raise the 3rd over the dominant.
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It's following rules - or rather "common practices" - laid down a few centuries ago in classical music. Originally Posted by BrandonB
IOW, it's conventional for a minor key to have a major V chord (not a minor V) - in order to provide the "leading tone" mentioned (half-step up from 7th step to tonic). As jeff says, the concept of "harmonic minor" springs from that practice, not vice versa. It happens in popular music of most kinds as well as classical and jazz.
In truth, the "minor key" is based on a scale with variable 6th and 7th degrees. (As well as raising the 7th, the 6th can sometimes be raised too.) IOW, it's not 3 separate scales (natural/harmonic/melodic). Mostly, it's natural minor, but occasionally - usually when approaching a tonic chord - you'll get major 7th and (less often) major 6th degrees.
The raised 6th is a melodic device, to make a smoother melodic ascent to the tonic: 5-6-7-1, as in the major key. When descending from the tonic, neither 6th nor 7th needs to be raised, and they commonly revert to minor intervals. Hence the concept of "melodic minor" as an "ascending only" scale. (Not a fixed rule, just another "common practice".)
You can hear melodic minor in action in Paul McCartney's "Yesterday" ("all my troubles seemed so far away" is D melodic minor); and in the last phrase of the A section of "Autumn Leaves". In both cases, it's over the V chord, resolving to the tonic.
Generally speaking, chords are not harmonized from melodic minor - although they can be. (Eg, in jazz, it's common for a tonic minor chord to have 6th, maj7 or 9th extensions, implying melodic minor.)
As well as the V chord, the other significant chord that's harmonized from harmonic minor is the viidim chord, which is the unique dim7 type (G#-B-D-F in A minor). This is an extremely common and important chord in jazz.
The ii chord can be seen as coming from natural or harmonic minor.Last edited by JonR; 06-12-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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Thanks guys, and thank you JonR for the clarification. I think I understand all of that
Basically, I didn't mean to say that anything derives from a harmonic or melodic minor, but was just wondering why the diatonic V natural minor chord (m7) wasn't used, but rather a dominant was used. In other words...I just wanted to know where that major 3rd came from Now I know it's from the major 7th of the harmonic minor scale. Am I saying that right?
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Yep. The half-step resolution between the major 7th and the root is more powerful than a whole-step resolution from the minor 7th to the root.
Try doing it both ways, and hear for yourself.
3xx3xx
x3x5xx
vs.
3xx4xx
x3x5xx
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Somewhat related to this:
I am a beginner, my teacher asked to record a II V I chord sequence (Dm, G7, CM) and improvise over it using notes from CM.
Well no matter how hard I try it just doesn't sound like jazz, I am guessing because I am not playing any altered notes which I am sure he will get to in due time. He also told me the 4 note (F) should be avoided for some chords, I forget which but I did notice it didn't go. My basic question is for each chord in this progression what is appropriate to play besides C major notes and avoid F.
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Avoid the F on C major. Actually, just don't hang on it.
I won't step on your teachers toes, but try writing out what notes are actually in those chords, and use them over each chord. Target them from above or below with chromatic passing tones.
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You mean ii-7b5-V-i ? you can always play the b5 as a tension if you want to. If it resolves to a Major seven chord you don't need to play anything related to the harmonic minor scale. If its a minor ii V then you should. If you see a ii-7b5 don't play a p5 and you'll be fine.
Last edited by AlanGM; 06-12-2013 at 07:14 PM. Reason: optional
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So like this: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Dm: D F A C
G7: G B D F
CM: C E G B
So actually you would want to play F except with CM.
Would you use also major notes not in the chord but with more emphasis on the chord tones?
I see what you are saying about the chromatic passing tones but I have not been asked to do that yet, although i could certainly experiment. When you do this do you think of each note as name or number? I keep hearing to think as notes as number in a scale, so relative to C Major:
Dm: 2 4 5 1
G7: 5 7 2 4
CM: 1 3 5 7
I don't yet know how to instantly translate a scale number to a location on the fret board but i guess it is what I need to learn.
I am thinking there are two ways to do that. One is muscle memory, you think in your head a number and finger just goes there. Second is visually where you look at the fretboard and visualize numbers and then move your finger there.
Am I over thinking this?
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Could we say it sounds more "natural" this way? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Both. Any scale, arpeggio, or chord voicing you want to be able to instantly know what the degree/interval is as well as the actual note name. It just comes with time. I used to practice the scale positions by saying out loud the interval of each note, like 1,12,123,1234,12345, etc. Originally Posted by jnbrown
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More possibilities:
Playing Over Half Diminished Chords
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Yes. The F resolves down to the E on the C chord. So if you do play an F note over the C chord, you should feel it as a tension that needs to move down to E. That's unless it's in a fairly fast upward scale run, E-F-G; the more you hang on the F over the C, the more you'll feel it want to go down, not up. In technical terms it's a "suspension" - held over from the previous chord, resolution delayed. Originally Posted by jnbrown
And anyway, you may just hear the F as a nasty dissonance, if you can also hear the E clearly lower in the chord. That's when F is an "avoid note" - when it's a b9 above E.
Yes, assuming you mean major scale notes. To begin with, start and end phrases on chord tones, with other scale notes in passing. As you get used to that, you can try holding or accenting non-chord tones, which count as chord "extensions", and will have stronger expressive effects. (Some work better than others, which you can find out by trial and error.) Originally Posted by jnbrown
Yes, that makes good sense of the sequence as a whole, all relating to the tonic (C). A useful alternative is to see each chord as 1-3-5-7, but a balance between the two is ideal. Eg, an F note on the Dm chord is the 3rd of the chord, but it's also the 4th of the key. Usually we hear it (perhaps subconsciously) as both, because the key of C has been established, and we hear the Dm chord as part of that, not as an isolated entity. Originally Posted by jnbrown
Neither is too relevant to chromatic approaches, however, because all that requires is to approach any chord tone from the half-step below - you don't need to number that note, or even name it. (It's a very easy away to sound "jazzy"
)
This concept always makes me think of my favourite example of chromatic approach: Django's "Appel Direct"
The basic riff is C6 arpeggio, with each chord tone approached from the fret below. And the audacious Django-ism is to finish the phrase on F#, a totally "wrong" note. The break is a kind of diminished run (I think), and the bridge (wittily) is the A section a half-step up (Miles Davis eat your heart out...).
No Originally Posted by jnbrown
. Each of those ways supports the other. Use chord shapes too, as ways of mapping out the neck, and connecting scale notes.
Last edited by JonR; 06-13-2013 at 07:03 AM.
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Well this gives me a lot to think about and to play around with.
If there is anything I have learned since I started is that this like climbing a mountain.
I don't know what is ahead of me and it is going to be a long road, but so far enjoying it.
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I was wondering if your teacher gave you this task so you can hear that just noodling in the right key isn't enough. Originally Posted by jnbrown
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As a former clarinet and sax player I thought the term "noodling" only applied to wind instruments. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I prefer the term "fidaddle" which I first heard from GB.
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Well you gotta start somewhere and nothing you do the first week is enough. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Well, the instructor could have been more deliberate: Originally Posted by RyanM
0. Record ii-V-I on looper.
1.a. play roots over every chord.
1.b. 3rds...
1.c. 5ths...
1.d. 7ths...
1.* come up with some rhythmic figures and redo those ^^^
2.0 Play 3rd then 7th as half notes over every chord. This give you the transitions between chords: C over Dm7 to B over G7; F over G7 to E over CMaj7.
2.1 Arpeggios (1-3-5-7, 7-5-3-1, 3-5-7-9 etc) over chords
2.1 syncopate arpeggios
2.2 Add approach notes.
etc, etc...
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This is really good info. It helps to have someting more systematic at this point instead of free form. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I do have faith in my teacher though. My lessons are online and only 30 minutes long so only so much we can cover.
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The F is fine against Dmin (it's the minor 3rd of Dmin) and against the G7 (it's the 7th of G7). The F will sound very tense against C major because it is a half step away from E, the 3rd of C major. Originally Posted by jnbrown
All music and especially jazz operates on the basis of creating tension and resolving the tension. In the case of jazz, tension is sometimes allowed to build for a long time before resolving. You'll get to it.
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I'd like to ask a question piggybacking on the original topic of this thread. On the minor 251, I've read that since the diatonic 1 chord of the harmonic minor scale is mM7, it is often played as a triad to keep the sound of the major 7 out of it. I often play a minor 7 chord for the 1 of a minor 251, and I think it sounds fine. However, this would be not be diatonic to the harmonic minor scale, right?
Is it safe to say that the harmonic minor scale is only used for the 5 chord, and the 2 & 1 are still diatonic to the natural minor scale? Or is it just proper to play a minor triad for the 1 of a minor 251 progression?
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Originally Posted by BrandonB
In practice in jazz, in a minor ii-V-i progression the i chord is a minor 7th. The ear readily accepts this as the tonic far better than it would a min/maj7 chord because of the dissonance between the major 7 and the root. Nica's Dream is an example where the minor/maj7 is used as the tonic; it has an exotic and tense sound rather than a resolved sound, compared to Blue Bossa.
These are an example where the ear takes precedence over theory.
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