Thelonious Monk

[John Curran]

I love players/composers that crack me up with musical ideas (without the aid of lyrics). Monk was certainly one, another was Frank Zappa.

[Jonzo]

One of his nephews is a guitarist and guitar teacher who has posted on this site. I cannot recall his name.

Here we go:

View Profile: henryrobinett - The Jazz Guitar Forum


http://www.henryrobinett.com/
http://www.henryguitar.com/

[David B]

Listen to Peter Bernstein's Monk album. Best renditions of Monk on guitar.

That's a great recording.

[JazzinNY]

If anyone's curious, I just posted a link to my version of Monk's "Epistrophy" in Showcase. Really fun tune to work on.

[bondmorkret]

I love Monk, a real dominant 7 chord workout! I think Reflections is my favourite tune of his

[pkirk]

It's an old thread, but here are some of my thoughts. I absolutely love listening to Monk. But I've never been able to play any of his tunes in any way I find musical, except round midnight, since it has more mainstream harmony so it can be played like other standard ballads, or in other ways (I've been doing it in 5/4 recently). The deceptively simple harmony in most monk tunes makes playing anything interesting over them extremely challenging, and ultimately almost every attempt at Monk tunes I hear from less than absolute first rate players (and even then) I find disappointing.

It's much worse when I hear a hobbyist (like myself) play monk tunes (The leader of a hardbop group I play in always calls Bemsha swing and I cringe everytime he does). Unfortunately, the simple harmony attracts a lot of novices to play Monk tunes, making it unbearable to my ears.

I attended a clinic where Gary Wittner explained some of his take on Monkisms and its translation to guitar. One that stuck with me was hitting a minor or major 2nd and letting one of the two notes sustain while the other is muted. Ever since I learned that, it has become a cliche that I use then hate the moment I did it, and hate when I hear others do it. So my take on it is "Please don't play Monk tunes in public" :-)

I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek, of course, play whatever you want...but I do think that Monk, as one of the greatest figures in Jazz, requires a certain mastery before his tunes can be brought to life. For an analogy, note how infrequently jazzers play tunes from "A love supreme".

[dasein]

given that the players who were directly or indirectly tutored by monk (dizzy, trane, etc) underwent profound changes in their musical conceptions, it's probably the case that he was one of those guys (like Bach) where "ya' had to be there" in order to really get in his head.

but there are clues and fragments and leftovers and memories if you're willing to dig

i'd start with Vijay Iyer's column on monk:

Jazz Columns: Thelonious Monk: Ode To A Sphere - By Vijay Iyer ? Jazz Articles

then you might want to read Evan Ziporyn's analysis of a monk performance:

Thelonious Monk?s Harmony, Rhythm, and Pianism : Analytical and Cross-Cultural Studies in World Music

finally, check out gary wittner's stuff. he has a book of monk transcriptions and two guitar articles on his website:

Thelonious Monk for Guitar!

i would also do the following:

- read RG Kelley's excellent biography for some much needed context
- read Ethan Iverson's writings on monk from the Do the Math blog
- listen and transcribe monk, especially as he plays standards... the Ellington album, the Solo Monk album, etc.

[pkirk]

thanks for the links. I'm a fan of Iverson's blog, and have read what he writes. I'll check out the others, I'm especially curious to see what Vijay says.

[silentcityrob]

Silentcityrob posted an arrangement of Pannonica here, that I really liked.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/chord...pannonica.html

Just noticed this - thanks!

I actually just posted a version of Monk's Mood that I arranged yesterday, here. Not as complicated (and far less painful!), but I still like how it turned out.

I always end up wishing I had a 7 string when attempting solo Monk pieces to be honest - it'd be nice to get some of those big pianistic chord voicings in there.

[clebergf]

Nice links dasein.

Thanks!!!

[dasein]

remember that at its core...

jazz = European harmonic practice + Afro-American folk tradition

by "folk tradition" i mean that it's primary means of transmission is aural, typically in master/apprentice relationships

even something like Indian classical music is a "folk music" in that, while some of it can be notated and taught in conservatory style settings, the only way to really learn is to find a master musician, sit your ass down, and learn it by ear (and for Indian classical musicians, this is often a 10+ year process)

so on the one hand, you have Monk the harmonic genius... look at the Ziporyn article and see the way that he voice leads. clearly knew his harmony inside and out.

but you also have Monk the folk musician, the man who inherited a tradition going from Louis Armstrong's singular rhythmic conception, up through the stride piano repertoire that are the real source of many "Monk-isms"

clearly, a balance between the two is necessary... studying the harmonies and voicings, but also the rhythmic and melodic conception which can only be gained by careful listening. there's a reason that Lennie Tristano had his students learn their scales/arps inside and out, but also made them sing along to jazz solos.

[Stevebol]

I spent the day learning a couple Monk tunes. 'Straight No Chaser' and 'Well You Needn't'. It's just funky Blues! Have fun with it! Same with 'Blue Monk'.


It ain't science, it's just Monk. I'm going to learn a couple more then it's back to the Bird cage..


Should get a handle on Round Midnight too. It's might be easier now that I get Monk a little better.

[Stevebol]

Pay attention to his sense of space and phrasing. Monk is like a master class in every recorded example you can find. A lot of people play his compositions, maybe 1% "gets it" and of that maybe 10% of them are guitarists.
Gary Wittner has put together a beautifully accurate collection of transcriptions for guitar. Maybe the most useful book out there from a technical point. But to really understand, immerse yourself in his music, or a recording. Live From the It Club is really great for feel and improvisational genius. Then look at where he puts his spaces, how he chooses NOT to run eighth notes blindly, how he highlights a particular interval, how his lines are headed to one statement or point of harmony, how he seems to wait until his idea is in place before he strikes a note, no matter how long that takes... just how many guitarists think that way? (Do listen to Bill Frisell playing Monk though.)
Get to know your whole tone scale, and not just as a "scale pattern" but in diads, and as a melodic way to get a dominant 7th sound.
He's a whole school unto himself, Monk. Yeah put the time in, to listen, to grab his vibe, to understand what his choices were. And put the time in to play with space in a new way.
Might I suggest you check out Herbie Nichols? A contemporary and (long overlooked and forgotten) friend of Monk at the time it was all coming together. Have fun!

VERY cool.

I can't find this listed as a Monk tune.

After a quick listen I sort of got the basic melody. Chords are something like Am-Bb7. Lot's of stabs in there.
At the end there's something like Fmaj7-Em-Dm-Em-Dm-Cmaj7-Bm-E7 chords. Nice little landmark.

I like

Edit*

Oh, Nichols wrote it. It's a keeper anyway.

[Stevebol]

^^^
LOL

I get it. "I didn't Happen". Neither did I Herbie.

[MattC]

Just adding another great recording of Monk interpretations-Carmen Sings Monk, by of course Carmen Mcrae. Great tunes, great singing, great arrangements, great band, great solos. Every Monk fan knows what a great master of melody Thelonious was. The fine lyricists that add strength to the case that Monk should be mentioned with Berlin, Porter, Ellington, Gershwin, Kern, etc. His works are surely worthy of inclusion in the great American songbook. Perhaps with his own chapter.

As for Monk's own recordings, in addition to the terrific Prestige, Columbia, and Riverside tracks, be sure to check out his earliest recordings on Blue Note, which are available on two CDs.

Matt

[Stevebol]

Kenny Clarke said 'Epistrophy' was actually written by Charlie Christian. No chance he wrote 'Well You Needn't' too and, ah...

Ah, forget it.

[euterpe]

It's been said that Handel is one of the few classical composers who expresses humor, but I haven't been able to ascertain which pieces the speaker had in mind.

I'm sure you/your source is confusing Handel with Haydn.


As for Monk, I love the humor in his playing/compositions, especially in the rhythm department.

[coolvinny]

Any jazz guitar playing Monk fan should check out "Bobby Broom Plays for Monk". Great album - very nice recording quality too. My favorite cut is Bemsha Swing - the drumming in particular.

[Melodic Dreamer]

I know this is an old thread, but I have been listening to a lot of monk lately. I've always thought that Frisell's older stuff had a lot of humor that monk shared in his music. Would you guys agree?

[JonR]

I wouldn't normally put Monk and Frisell together, but I agree about the humour. Monk always makes me smile, because he's witty. LIke a deadpan comedian. Frisell's humour is lighter, I think, and he's driven a lot by nostalgia (which I don't think Monk was).
I think Frisell understands the mysterious dreamy power in old-fashioned pop and country the same way film director David Lynch does - it's mellow, but also spooky if you really milk it.
In contrast, Monk is restless and edgy - even when you think you've got him, he surprises you with the next note.
Frisell plays guitar with the most intense love for the sounds it can make (even the funny ones).
Monk plays the piano like whack-a-mole - "Ha! got it! now it's over here - got it again! bastard! got it! Ha!"

(That's the way to treat the damn thing. It's a machine; it's not a musical instrument until you treat it with sufficient disrespect. Guitar, in contrast, repays respect. You caress a guitar. Caress a piano and it just ignores you. You have to beat hell out of it.)

[M-ster]

... Monk plays the piano like whack-a-mole - "Ha! got it! now it's over here - got it again! bastard! got it! Ha!" ...

Liked this, Jon.

[goldenwave77]

[QUOTE=dasein;293406]
then you might want to read Evan Ziporyn's analysis of a monk performance:

Thelonious Monk?s Harmony, Rhythm, and Pianism : Analytical and Cross-Cultural Studies in World Music

Have to check this out. I met Evan while in college. He's from Evanston, IL as was my roommate, and was doing clarinet at Eastman School of Music (Rochester, NY), though perhaps he did other things as well. He came down for a weekend, and maybe even went to a college-sponsored concert together (this was 38 yrs. ago, so the memory is a little dim).

Bill Barron and Ed Blackwell were artists-in-residence or on the faculty at the college (again, can't remember which)... the college also offered a course in West African drumming, which, come to think of it, might have been a good thing to take.

[Encinitastubes]

I wouldn't normally put Monk and Frisell together, but I agree about the humour. Monk always makes me smile, because he's witty. LIke a deadpan comedian. Frisell's humour is lighter, I think, and he's driven a lot by nostalgia (which I don't think Monk was).
I think Frisell understands the mysterious dreamy power in old-fashioned pop and country the same way film director David Lynch does - it's mellow, but also spooky if you really milk it.
In contrast, Monk is restless and edgy - even when you think you've got him, he surprises you with the next note.
Frisell plays guitar with the most intense love for the sounds it can make (even the funny ones).
Monk plays the piano like whack-a-mole - "Ha! got it! now it's over here - got it again! bastard! got it! Ha!"

(That's the way to treat the damn thing. It's a machine; it's not a musical instrument until you treat it with sufficient disrespect. Guitar, in contrast, repays respect. You caress a guitar. Caress a piano and it just ignores you. You have to beat hell out of it.)

OP here. I'm glad this thread keeps reviving; I've learned a lot from it. I agree with JonR's post. I've found that jazz guitarists typically sound boring and cliché playing Monk because they approach the guitar as such a finesse instrument. I bought Peter Bernstein's album and, although I love his playing, I thought he missed the point entirely. I think to pull off Monk you would need a player with a jazz sensibility, but perhaps someone who approaches the guitar like Neil Young; someone not afraid to beat on it. Crank an amp to the brink of overdrive and then pound on the thing. Then drop it, walk away, dance a few steps, stare at it and then stab a chord and run a quick whole tone. I'd pay money to see that.