Difference between Blues and Jazz Blues

[Robertkoa]

From a broad perspective including comping and creating Harmonically Expanded Blues tracks which sneak into other Keys and back to the Home Key- I wondered about what are your thoughts on the general differences between Straight Blues and Jazz Blues.

I noticed recently for example just by accident I was playing to a Cable Channel with some cool Jazz Blues and I could get away with murder on the One and Four Chords, soloing stacking stuff on top vertically or horizontally but when it came to the Two Chord and the Turnarounds I was definitely more mechanical and not as free....

This is a huge subject actually but one I think you guys can REALLY expand upon.

As an improvising Guitarist - and Writer-I'm coming from a Hendrix/Steely Dan/ Fusion kind of perspective and thought I could sidestep Jazz and still get where I want to go - but I think a deeper conceptual understanding will help- and I may want to jump up onstage with some Jazz Guys at some point- I tend to play big chords rather than triads when comping but there's still a bit of Virgin Territory on voicings- so ?

What are the main differences between the two Blues Forms ?

[mr. beaumont]

Jazz blues is blues played by jazz musicians...

I'd like to tell you there's an easy answer, but there's too many exceptions...for example, jazz blues will often add a lot of chords to a three chord blues...but not always...just like blues and jazz have a different kind of swing feel...but not always...

[Flyin' Brian]

It's played in Bb, Ab and Eb instead of C, A and E.

[Robertkoa]

Ha!...............I'm asking about expanding the Blues Form by modulating and establishing new tonal centers while keeping a Blues Feel- and you're talking about individual sharp and flat keys ? The Rhythmic differences are obvious- 8th note swing ain't no big thing. I much prefer a widely varied Rhythmic approach although strictly swinging 8ths are a challenge for long phrases-just not much fun for the listener IMO......

I've also noticed that I can force a phrase to be heard in a different key depending on the phrase ending which I call a Melodic Cadence-I think Melodic Cadences are the basis for all improvisation whether someone knows any theory or not.......

The cool thing are the passing chords which are usually a 2-5-1 or a 2 -tritone sub- 1 leading to each tonic ( the 1 chord ) or temporary tonic ( the 4 chord and the 2 chord ) and the biggest variation seems to be in the turnarounds..... and maybe the way the 2 chord is voiced to set up the 5.

Then sometimes there is no 2-5- 1 to the temporary Tonic but more like a miniature chord melody staying within the harmony of the 1 chord or temporary tonic using fragments or extensions, melodic inversions within the tonic or Temporary Tonic harmony.

How do you think Jazz evolved in this way ?

[Flyin' Brian]

Ha!...............I'm asking about expanding the Blues Form by modulating and establishing new tonal centers while keeping a Blues Feel- and you're talking about individual sharp and flat keys ?

Uh it was a joke......

[JonR]

Ha!...............I'm asking about expanding the Blues Form by modulating and establishing new tonal centers while keeping a Blues Feel- and you're talking about individual sharp and flat keys ? The Rhythmic differences are obvious- 8th note swing ain't no big thing. I much prefer a widely varied Rhythmic approach although strictly swinging 8ths are a challenge for long phrases-just not much fun for the listener IMO......

I've also noticed that I can force a phrase to be heard in a different key depending on the phrase ending which I call a Melodic Cadence-I think Melodic Cadences are the basis for all improvisation whether someone knows any theory or not.......

The cool thing are the passing chords which are usually a 2-5-1 or a 2 -tritone sub- 1 leading to each tonic ( the 1 chord ) or temporary tonic ( the 4 chord and the 2 chord ) and the biggest variation seems to be in the turnarounds..... and maybe the way the 2 chord is voiced to set up the 5.

Then sometimes there is no 2-5- 1 to the temporary Tonic but more like a miniature chord melody staying within the harmony of the 1 chord or temporary tonic using fragments or extensions, melodic inversions within the tonic or Temporary Tonic harmony.

How do you think Jazz evolved in this way ?

I like to see it as African-American musicians (around 100 years ago of course) who knew the blues as part of their heritage - the "folk music" of previous generations - but had some education in European harmony (either in colleges or marching bands) and wanted to mix the two: to both make the blues more sophisticated, and to import some personal expression to European concepts.

IOW, I think it's useful to see the archaic "spirit" of blues - as it were - on the one hand, and harmonic movement and sophistication (the European classical heritage) on the other.
The spirit of blues, its essence, is really a one-scale no-chord music. The scale doesn't even have fixed pitches (as all western scales must). It has gravitational centres (tonic and 5th), and it has other notes in between that can kind of shift around depending on expression. Eg, there is a strong 3rd: but it's neither "major" nor "minor" (in western terms); it kind of shifts around between the two, and can even drop below m3. There is also a 7th (roughly equivalent to m7), and a 4th (pretty much the same as P4). But there is also an important region of expression between 4 and 5.

Now, when jazz musicians get hold of this, they have to make something of it. If only because pianists can't bend notes, dammit! And they want to make "art", not just wail away in some primitive overalls-on-the-back-porch way. They want to wear sharp suits, for chrissake...

Anyway, enough contentious ranting! (I should say there's nothing racial in this. It's more of a country-vs-city distinction; cross-cultural attitudes to heritage, art and "progress".)

If you want the ultimate example of "jazz 12-bar" - where the chord progression has stretched about as far as it can from "blues" without actually snapping - you need Charlie Parker's "Blues For Alice"

||:Fmaj7 - - - |Em7b5 - A7 - |Dm7 - G7 - |Cm7 - F7 - |
|Bbmaj7 - - - |Bbm7 - Eb7 - |Am7 - D7 - |Abm7 - Db7 - |
|Gm7 - - - |C7 - - - |Am7 - Dm7 - |Gm7 - C7 - :||

The basic markers of the 3-line blues format remain: I in bar 1, IV on bar 5, V across bars 9-10. As long as those are pegged (it seems) everything else is up for grabs.
Of course this means there's precious little space for any of your standard "blues scale" riffing! If you want to import the "spirit of blues" back into this, you need to do it by chromatic approaches to chord tones (half-step below, sliding or bending up): finding the sneaky "notes in the spaces", if you like.

[kris]

Jazz blues is blues played by jazz musicians...

I'd like to tell you there's an easy answer, but there's too many exceptions...for example, jazz blues will often add a lot of chords to a three chord blues...but not always...just like blues and jazz have a different kind of swing feel...but not always...

+1
Very inteligent answer.

[wolflen]

its strange to me still..when i hang with rock musicians..i point out a jazz tune and say its "blues in G" (miles -All Blues) and they cant hear it..."thats not blues.."

how blues is defined by different "ears" is up for grabs..i consider some jimi hendrix songs "blues" though the standard progression "pegs" are not there..(foxy lady)

using extended chords..chromatics and turnarounds can make a three chord blues "jazzy" ... and to some its not the blues anymore..

i wrote a blues piece using minor third chord intervals:

G13 Bb13 | Eb13 C9/13 | F13 D13 ...these are the pivot chords not the entire progression...but you can see its away from a "basic" blues..and to many is considered "jazzy"

giving a blues piece a jazz feel may take some work..as with the basic three chords..its not as easy as it seems...try playing an albert king solo with his kind of feel.. its more than just playing the chords..

wolf

[Reg]

If your looking for social sources for answers... hey that's easy... we all have some version... but that doesn't really cover...
If you want to understand musically... you need to compare the harmonic, melodic and rhythmic relationships... we could say the Old and the New

Old...Major and Minor tonality concepts..
The three forms of minor can be reduced to basic preference for the harmonic form which borrowed the critical leading tone feature from Major.
The scales... and more importantly ... the principles and functional relationships determined by these two collection of notes...determine the chord structures and functional relationships.... everything else was incidental or in some supporting role... Long story short'
Voice leading... harmonic progressions and the relationships... become very stereotyped.
Whether this was,(is) from conditioning or some inherent vague mental disposition... is always something that needs to be dealt with.

Anyway by making same sounds with same diatonic notes.... Modal concepts provide very effective antidote for those embedded Tonal conventions... and will open ears to harmonic progressions and concepts without that burdensome or onerous encumbrances...

Modal concepts don't make any new chord structures not found in Maj. Min. tonality...but opens possibilities to different relationships between chords and their functions...

Parallelism also opens new doors to concepts of tonal organization. Parallel motion tends to reduce the functional value of chords... opens ears to different aspects of harmonic influence. More of a Pop, classical or Rock characteristic. OK enough...

We could reduce traditional harmonic concepts to;
Isolated chord structures and individual root movement... but there are extensive resources of systematic study of those limited materials...

So if we look or hear the actual physical elements which structurally make and define music. The arrangement and sources of those structural components... you might hear and see what help define the differences between Blues and jazz blues...

If you want to get into those details... cool, that's what I do.

If you want the simple short answer...
Blues pulls from Euro Traditional classical tradition tonality and randomly applied Blue notes...(not really random).

Jazz Blues also pulls from traditional functional harmony... we also use blue notes... but in a structural manor, which create harmonic blue note concepts of organization. Generally pull from Melodic Minor influence, which also creates a harmonic concept. Extensive use of modal interchange and again organizing concepts. And of course... modal tonality and modal style concepts or methods of organization.

The tricky part.... they're all going on all the time simultaneously.

[nopedals]

I don't think blues has a definition. It is more in the eyes of the beholder.

I think of Mood Indigo and Moten Swing as blues numbers, but I can't tell you why. They are not very similar to each other, and don't have standard blues changes, but they are both blues tunes IMHO.

[bobby d]

Basic Blues is usually three chords. Bluesy Jazz has at least 7 chords with different turnarounds than Blues. I think Joe Pass' Virtuoso albums have some good examples of Bluesy Jazz. Hmm, he ain't bendin' the strings!

Jazzy Blues is when blues players attempt to get jazzy. Bluesy Jazz is Jazz players playing Blues. At least, that's the way I see it.

[Robertkoa]

Thanks guys- and Reg- I think I like the "longer" answers that will help me expand and write better are the ones I like..........

You touched upon Jazzers using Classical Harmony- So they use secondary dominants and substitutions and 2-5-1s all over the place- so they are in " continual cadence" and if the temporary tonic is a diatonic chord- it's all in a Parent Key- if the Temporary Tonic is distantly related- it's a Modulation and can't logically be considered as within a "parent Key "- but normally the Blues Form can be considered as within a Parent Key or even 1 key with passing chords- unless it really shifts to a new Key-the entire form-is this generally correct ?

**Are there examples of Jazz Blues that start in Fmajor with a complete Turnaround etc. and then modulate to a distant Minor Key like C sharp Minor and do a complete Blues Form in that Key and then come back to the Home Key ?

Seems like the Delta and Chicago Blues Originators didn't use the 2 chord much if at all- at least until T bone walker wrote Stormy

Monday-right ?

Bobby D above-yeah that's what I mean - who originated this expanded Form and when?

I'm going to listen to the Parker Tune that was mentioned also- I agree Joe Pass is very Blue and to me Benson with his time feel and phrasing and some really dirty in a good way notes can play Bluesy sounding stuff over non Blues Chord Progressions.

The most raw sounding to me of all Jazz Players for playing Blues is probably Larry Carlton- but he's maybe not in the direct lineage style-wise as Wes-Joe Pass-Martino-Benson etc. but here I'm digressing 'cause I'm in this thread more interested in the Harmonic aspects of expanding the Blues .

I haven't heard much Pat Martino though remember reading about him in Guitar Player Magazine- and watched a Video of him on another thread here-was surprised at how well he plays and hear similarities between him and Benson- Martino is an amazingly talented soloist though,with a great seemingly effortless right hand IMO.

But again he's playing over established Forms, not creating new ones- which admittedly this far down the line is not an easy task( creating new sounding musical Forms).

I know there's no easy answer- that's what I need you guys for- also I'm asking for a complete crash course in the entire History of Jazz and Blues- Harmonically and stylistically, conceptually here kind of- which is asking a lot- " No problem Robert- we'll give you that in 6 posts "

Ha. But you guys can take me pretty far pretty quickly I think- because it seems like Harmonically Expanding things is part of Jazz and Classical Composition- but Jazz is kind of like " musical shorthand" that gets you there quicker in some ways perhaps..........

EDIT-OK ( thanks ) - just listened to Blues For Alice and I hear that as a harmonically expanded Blues Form- I'd rather hear just the changes without the melody to get more of a feel for the chords...also I want to hear if the chords hold together well on their own OR if they need the melody to hold them together seamlessly....

[JonR]

its strange to me still..when i hang with rock musicians..i point out a jazz tune and say its "blues in G" (miles -All Blues) and they cant hear it..."thats not blues.."

Well, you picked a bad example there! "All Blues" is a significant departure from "blues" as any rock (or blues!) musician would understand it. It's really a modal tune with nods towards blues structure. Or a blues that's been heavily "modalized".

What's "not blues" about All Blues:
1. There's no IV chord (minor I instead)
2. It's in 6/8 time
3. The 3rd of the tonic chord is not flattened - pure B natural all the way. (Except on the minor chord of course.)
4. There's an occasional 4-bar vamp between choruses.

IOW, it's really not correct to say that All Blues is "a blues in G" - that doesn't really describe it at all. If you treat it as a normal blues in G when playing it, you're really missing the point.

how blues is defined by different "ears" is up for grabs..i consider some jimi hendrix songs "blues" though the standard progression "pegs" are not there..(foxy lady)

Agreed. Blues was a big influence on Jimi, and it showed in his playing even when he wasn't playing "a blues".

using extended chords..chromatics and turnarounds can make a three chord blues "jazzy" ... and to some its not the blues anymore.

i wrote a blues piece using minor third chord intervals:

G13 Bb13 | Eb13 C9/13 | F13 D13 ...these are the pivot chords not the entire progression...but you can see its away from a "basic" blues..and to many is considered "jazzy"

giving a blues piece a jazz feel may take some work..as with the basic three chords..its not as easy as it seems...try playing an albert king solo with his kind of feel.. its more than just playing the chords..

wolf

Good points.

I think a useful distinction is between "A blues" - a tune with standard 12-bar structure, regardless of how many jazz chord subs you make - and "THE blues", which is a sound, a feel, you can apply to almost anything (eg by bending notes around, using more vocalized instrumental techniques than usual).
Are you playing "the blues", or are you playing "a blues"? The two don't have to go together, and I think most jazz musicians would understand the difference...

[Robertkoa]

Wolflen- I agree "Foxy Lady" by Jimi- could definitely be considered a Harmonically Expanded Blues Form.

In fact- I just saw a video about Substitute 5 of 5 chords-very cool BUT- what I do in Composition is not interpolate dominant and tritone sub progressions everywhere- there are many other cadences besides 2-5-1s and as you said a 1 -flat three-4 is a good example-Foxy Lady .

And as you can imagine that progression is strong enough that you could modulate it up a fourth and possibly create a backdrop for improv based on modulating 1-flat three- 4 progressions.

A long time ago I wrote a 6/8 thing voiced like a horn section on guitar ( only more primitive ) that I think was inspired by Miles All Blues- but I didn't realize it then- it does a chord riff similar to All Blues but then goes up a 4th then after the turnaround it goes to each relative Minor- it's a little more rocked out and once I figure out a melody and a Bridge - ....meanwhile it's great fun to blow on.

[S_R_S5]

Jazz blues is blues played by jazz musicians...

That sums it up. The differences are small, but there are a few. The form is the same. Jazz blues still follows the 1, 4, 1, 5, 4, 1 progression, however Jazzers like to add to it. You will likely see extra chords or 2-5-1s in it. The second difference is the phrasing. When a blues player plays the blues it sounds blues. When a jazz player plays the blues, they throw in their Coltrane licks.

Hope this helps.

[Reg]

Yea Blues are basically standard.....Tonic or implication of I... subdominant or implication of IV..... Dominant or implication of V ...

We've been trained to hear certain forms, as Jon and others mentioned, 12 bars etc... but haven't you ever heard a blues where the entire tune is just a I chord, the form is incidental... it's a blues... almost no clues... some lick that used b3,b7 or b5 ...over and over. And you can feel the since of struggle... I understand this sounds like BS... But Blues are not a technique or musical concept...

Anyway... when you begin to musically define... different styles of blues reflect different musical concepts and their languages...

Robert... You sound classically hip... so yes we use lots of harmonic movement... But not in what your referring to as cadence.

Somewhat as you can hear root or even harmonic movement from inversions, voicings or functional substitutions.... with no cadence. Jazz players use chord patterns, which are collections of chords from standards or passages from standards or simply jazz standard practice chord collections...
We hear and use those Chord Patterns... as one chord. They don't need functional analysis... think of them as simple variants or ornamental.
Usually no modulation is implied. Jazz always has access to different harmonic choices through Modal Interchange... which again really doesn't imply modulation. I hear many traditional composers etc... use the word color... Not part of the functional analysis.
Yes, generally the blues imply a tonal center.

Longer answers... composers and jazz improvisation generally camouflage the basic functional movement we accept as Blues Form.
Because the blues concept is so basic and heard by almost anyone... the implications are heard even when not actually played.

I like your Musical Shorthand reference... That's a great analysis for jazz notation... you need to be aware of what's implied besides what the basic notation says...
Reg

[Robertkoa]

Reg- yes- when I solo I often play Blues type or Blues endings on my phrases, ending on chord tones and momentarily it can be though of as 1 chord Blues even if there are lots of changes.

Soloing is the easy part once the structure is there-I'm more concerned about expanding the Forms Harmonically while still having them sound "Inside."

For example Jazz and BeBop could be thought of long as modulating or sometimes diatonic sequences of 2-5-1s and substitutions and interpolations but it may also be possible to use other progressions as the Formulae and create sequences to improvise over using other forms without relying so much on circle of fifths type Harmony.

Easier said than done- but I'm talking about moving to some new forms and hooking the chords together in different ways from circle of fifths-

As a soloist I grew up bending notes and now include wider intervals and shapes across the fingerboard so it's going to sound more Blues generally when you bend notes- it's the harmonic/compositional aspects that seem like they could/should go further into some new areas........

[Reg]

Hey Robert...
Expanding form... harmonically generally comes from relationships... if you think of number games.... If there are 10 factors that imply a form, you have 10 factors to play with, develop or how ever you choose to manipulate. How you balance each factor etc...

The easiest method of expanding harmonic form is to simple keep the harmonic rhythm of the harmony somewhat close and develop on the weak side. The harmonic rhythm is what is implied by the rhythmic accent pattern of progression.... (not just changes), and the weak side is the space between.
That's generally how we as jazz players comp and solo. Not all the time, but as I always say... it's the implied starting point or base point from which we begin. Keeps outside material sounding inside, at least in context of playing or listening.

I don't hear bebop changes as modulations or sequences etc... all the changes are in relationship to one tonal center... There are at least a dozen versions of rhythm changes... there are basically the same to me. All those harmonic choices or doors are always open.... Approaching from either side... changes or solos.

If you think of progressions as blocks.... as in the style of early Wayne Shorter composition... and as you said hooking or linking together... There are unlimited possibilities... many think of Form as simply a framework for your creative imagination to function.

The circle of 5th... are one source... they tend to sound straight, somewhat stereotyped. But still a method of organization.
I tend to hear bending as technique, as compared to a concept... but would be interesting to hear.... Reg

[markf]

The Charles Mingus music that I have heard

is

jazz blues.

It's the chords, the melodies, the instruments he uses, the players, the feel the players impart into the music, and the feeling the music gives me.

I don't know any theory, so can not give that type of explanation.

also, Johnny Hodges, soloing on one of Ellington's tunes, is jazz blues.

[JonR]

I always think of blues as the "soul" or "spirit" of jazz - or even its lifeblood. Without it, jazz can sound dry and academic - technically impressive often, but not moving or expressive.
IMO, you can't play good jazz at all without a proper understanding of blues. I just don't think it IS true jazz, without some blues consciousness or experience.

You CAN (arguably) have blues with little jazz content. But as soon as the singer or musicians start improvising: then that's "jazz", surely?

In that sense, therefore, it's a false distinction. The two musics are intimately related. Maybe we can say they exist on a spectrum, with "totally blues" at one end and "totally jazz" at the other - but they would be hypothetical extremes (hard to imagine)!

Actually, what about "folk" content too? One of my favourite jazz quotes is from Louis Armstrong. When asked if the music he played could be described as a kind of "folk" music, he replied: "Sure it is. Ain't never heard a horse play it!"

[markf]

I always think of blues as the "soul" or "spirit" of jazz - or even its lifeblood.

yes.

[Reg]

It should be obvious that I totally agreed with Blues,( blue notes and blue note influence and accent patterns), as being part of Jazz...

But where do musicians like Chick, B Evans, Jackie Mclean or Ahmad Jamal fit... latin jazz has different way of creating tension and release...

Blues is a very broad term... I hear lots of music called Blues and I understand their using some of the characteristics of Blues... But it's really hard to hear any relationship to Jazz.
Reg
I do like the verbal images

[Robertkoa]

Ha ! I don't know if the stuff I'm writing or assembling is "Jazz" or "Classical with a Groove " and there are lots of gaps in my knowledge-for example I don't know what "rhythm changes " are - I know it's a standard form like Blues that Jazzers use to Jam on.....

When you "harmonically expand" Rock like Steely Dan or R@B like Stevie Wonder - it kind of overlaps into Jazz so I'm kind of aspiring to that though nowhere near as brilliant as they were- but I'm trying to move things forward into some structures and forms that haven't been done dozens or hundreds of times.

I've been finding virgin territory on Guitar rhythm voicings and parts and have lots of freedom improvising but still feel that I should be able to get to distantly related keys or regions when working on writing chord progressions, and they will be fun for Jazz and Rck Musicians to solo on when I do.

Interesting about the different type of tension-release in Latin Jazz versus straight Jazz- and to me some Jazz is more like Blues in it's tension-release and some is more like Tin Pan Alley- sophisticated but not much tension.

I listened years ago to Art Tatum-and he was very Bluesy and Funky no matter what he played-if I was gifted like that I wouldn't need to do anything but play.. but I'm not .

[gingerjazz]

Even though i would describe myself as a jazz guitar player with a blues background,i allways find myself wishing it could all just be called music.I love that line in the film the Blues brothers when the barmaid states that they have both kinds of music in their bar,Country and western.

[brad4d8]

Hey, Charlie, let's play the Blues in B...
Check it out.
Brad