Em7b5 + Gdim7 = what?

[Nuff Said]

Some soloists even ignore underlying chords and their scales here and there if it helps creating a better melody line.

I totally agree, a good melodic phrase can sound great, even if the notes aren't strictly chord/scale relationship theory.

Ear, ear, ear
Nuff

[JonR]

Some soloists even ignore underlying chords and their scales here and there if it helps creating a better melody line. Lester Young frequently did that. Miles Davis has told that he and Charlie Parker once discussed whether one could play a such and such note over a such and such chord. Bird said yes, Miles said no. Some days later they heard Lester do just that, and it sounded right, so Bird looked at Miles with an "I told you" expression.

Interesting story. I would have thought the conversation would have been the other way round, personally. (I don't disbelieve it, but do you have a source for it?)

But of course, any note can be played over any chord; and I'm sure they would both have accepted that (chromatic passing notes being reasonably common in bebop, and certainly in blues). The debate would be - and still is - about how (if it's a "wrong note") you resolve it, or even (more contentious, at least in those days) whether you need to.

Django Reinhardt was playing #4s on downbeats without resolution as early as 1938; admittedly for deliberately dissonant effect. I once heard a Miles solo where he ended his last phrase on a #4/b5, as if to wrongfoot the next soloist: "get out of that one!"

[brwnhornet59]

I totally agree, a good melodic phrase can sound great, even if the notes aren't strictly chord/scale relationship theory.

Ear, ear, ear
Nuff

A lot of that can be explained by the proper usage of implying substituted lines against the progression, even when those subbed chords are not present. So it can be seen as CS theory in one of its higher forms depending on how deeply one looks and chooses to apply it. That is a big part of the Art, IMHO

But there are many ways to look at it, this just happens to be my favorite. But practicing your butt off applying this in the woodshed is the only way that I know of to get there.

[oldane]

Interesting story. I would have thought the conversation would have been the other way round, personally. (I don't disbelieve it, but do you have a source for it?)

If my memory doesn't fail me, the source is Miles' own autobiography. As Miles told the story, he acknowledged that Bird was right. This incident was early in Miles career in the 1940s, and he had not fully developed his style by then. Before joining Birds band, Miles studied at Juilliard, and there he must have learned quite a few musical rules which Bird likely tought him how to break.

[JonR]

If my memory doesn't fail me, the source is Miles' own autobiography. As Miles told the story, he acknowledged that Bird was right. This incident was early in Miles career in the 1940s, and he had not fully developed his style by then. Before joining Birds band, Miles studied at Juilliard, and there he must have learned quite a few musical rules which Bird likely tought him how to break.

Thanks!

[griphon ii]

I'm back. Thanks for sending the message to come back.
I'm really busy.

Em7b5 and Gdim ARE TWO Different changes.
The dim HAS a sharp or flat. Em7b5... E G Bb D...(C9/Gm6)
Same fingerings, different POV and VERY enlightening...
Gdim... G Bb Db E or Fb to be proper. (that function is not different) The fingering, oddly, too, are the same. b9 and dim (same change) move in m3. (new chord names, what a bummer and an abject JOY) Oddly, the function is the same. The function in terms of harmony is the most important. Both changes are dominant. Really, makes no difference in a solo, sorta'.

I've a view. There is a I (i) and dominant V... We can get
real technical, but for the most part all tunes come back I, the real
variation isn't much of a difference.
~TR

[griphon ii]

Don't get caught up in the theory, get caught in the sound. ii V is a dominant.
Dm G7 is a G9. REALLY LOOK AT THE CYCLE OF 4ths and 5ths. It's everything
you need to know is in there. Chord progressions, everything. It's that simple...