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who cares? what hinders you to learn it like that?
Originally Posted by joe2758
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06-29-2026 09:47 AM
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I am. What are you offended about here? I'm not sure what I did. I'm trying to have a chat, I'm not looking for advice. I'm interested. You're not. Pointless? Ok, sure. I'm bored. I'm killing time. I'm talking. I'm not trying to solve anything. I'm not disagreeing with you..I don't get it man? Originally Posted by djg
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Who do you think you are, Joe? How dare you? What do you think this is? WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?
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Personally I'm not conscious of theory unless I choose to be. I don't think about it when playing but I might consider it when I'm working out what to play over the chords. Theory has nothing to do with style.
There have been many famous players who didn't know theory as such, as we know. But there have also been quite a few players who confess in interviews that they wished they did know it because it would have improved their music.
To me, theory is just the description of what music is, including technical terms, and how it works, which I'd consider invaluable. How much you actually need at any time depends almost entirely on the level you're playing at.
But there is a danger in theory in that it can take over the actual hands-on of playing. After all, it's just technical knowledge of a certain kind and it's a lot easier to spout theoretical stuff if you have a decent brain than really solo beautifully over Stella or whatever. Frankly, one sees that a lot, to be honest.
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I watched a lil bit through it, but when stumble on the part where he says i can't play triads on top strings, why would i need to learn that, I'm not in a reggae band jeez, yea stick to your GJ licks. Teach that pholosophy to young kids, it's good, we have less competiton in the real world.
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I like your style - the humour landed beautifully. Originally Posted by joe2758
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I think the question may be framed too narrowly.
It helps to separate two kinds of knowledge. One is declarative knowledge, meaning things you can state explicitly, like scales, chord symbols, or theoretical rules. The other is procedural knowledge, meaning what you can actually do when you play.
Theory mostly sits in the first category; anything that can be fully described in that way can, in principle, be taught explicitly and learned directly.
That is useful, but it is not the whole story. A large part of what jazz players actually rely on seems to be acquired in a different way.
The more important learning happens when knowledge becomes procedural.
That process seems to occur less through formal explanation and more through listening, imitation, repetition, playing with others, and reflection. In other words, more like acquiring a language than studying a system of rules.
At that point, theory is still present, but it is no longer the driving force. It becomes a way of naming and clarifying what is already understood in practice, rather than the source of the understanding itself.
It feels more accurate to say that theory has a role, but only within a much larger process of musical learning that eventually goes beyond it.
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i'm not offended. i misread the intentions of the thread. chat away Originally Posted by joe2758
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Are you sure it isn't? Originally Posted by joe2758
I mean I didn't go to jazz school, but I do get the impression from chatting to friends that they do teach lots of II-V licks and then teach you how to apply them through standards. I think that's a commonplace approach, they call it 'vocabulary.'
For instance there's the infamous 'Cry me a river lick' and so on.
The result can be a bit generic but it gets them going.
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So do I. My theory is that it's usually people who have a great deal of theory background and knowledge who talk about its limited usefulness. Originally Posted by grahambop
CVH is a primary example because, if you read his resume, he's done the lot and been everywhere (and he's got perfect pitch). And here he is saying what he's saying.
But I suspect it because, if you put yourself in the place of a beginner ignorant of theory, they'll remain ignorant. And that's not the same thing at all.
It's people who've got a bit of theory and think they've discovered the Holy Grail you need to watch
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The last thing anyone wants is an advice about theory from a GJ guitarist. Wonder why they don't really play anything outside of GJ? There are exceptions of course but in general that's the case.
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My guess is Joe is thinking mostly about the Barry Harris school. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Barry's an interesting case...I mean, he fucking actually played the music. So that's gotta be worth something. But I don't think his teaching is the be all end all of how to learn to play bop. But if you are yhe type that likes learning in that style, his stuff is absolutely gold.
Jazz hit some bumps when folks decided to make it something you could major in.
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My experience is the main issue with teaching adult students is to get them to stop talking and actually play something. There's lot of reasons for this - adults are much more self conscious of their playing in a way kids aren't. But also, adults - especially the kind of intelligent adults that are drawn to jazz - get interested in theory for its own sake. Originally Posted by ragman1
So do I. My theory is that it's usually people who have a great deal of theory background and knowledge who talk about its limited usefulness.
CVH is a primary example because, if you read his resume, he's done the lot and been everywhere (and he's got perfect pitch). And here he is saying what he's saying.
But I suspect it because, if you put yourself in the place of a beginner ignorant of theory, they'll remain ignorant. And that's not the same thing at all.
It's people who've got a bit of theory and think they've discovered the Holy Grail you need to watch
And idea of developing one's ear and sense of rhythm is quite intimidating, especially to adults who have been told that they have two left feet and can't sing. Which is a lot of people!
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Barry's sucked all of the oxygen out of the room when it comes to learning bebop. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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The whole anti-theory thing is rooted back in Hendix being humble or Wes saying he didn't practice. Here's the thing Wes didn't actually throw raw meat in his guitar case and he could, in fact, read music and Hendix was not some idiot savant in willful ignorance.
Hack guitarists latched onto these misunderstandings as gospel and have polluted the water.
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Absolutely, that's what I'm saying, or part of it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
You said GJ was like bluegrass. Precisely. There are only so many ways to play a rapid solo in G without using very well-worn lines that make it sound authentic, as it should.
Tony Rice never bothered with theory but in later life he got interested, listened to a lot of jazz, and got in with John Carlini who taught him theory concepts. That's where he (TR) learned to insert 9ths and what have you and yet retain an authentic sound.
Then, of course, he got together with Grisman and did Dawg music. I never liked it but I think it gave Tony a less restricted way of playing. But he never really got away from using pentatonics, it was too ingrained in him.
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Quotes: "I mainly just copied stuff and listened a lot and learned tunes." " I thought the best way to learn was to just get on and play stuff. " Originally Posted by grahambop
I agree with Graham.
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I've been thinking about a Parker by numbers list. Taking Parker heads by their intricacy. Taking detours along the way, example: learn Honeysuckle Rose before Blues for Alice, so the student already has the lick in their repertoire. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
My Little Suede Shoes (Start here for it's simplicity)
Cool Blues (The IV of a blues is minor I, basic blues form)
Now's The Time (a slightly more complex blues head, can add more harmony)
Honeysuckle Rose (Prep for the next tune)
Blues for Alice (the 3rd blues, vocab from Honeysuckle, even more harmony)
How High The Moon
Ornithology
My problem with lists like David Baker's A List of Essential Bebop Tunes for Memorization is they're in alphabetical order. Almost like you should get a teacher....
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If I was starting learning Bluegrass tomorrow, I would obviously start with the well worn lines. (And for that matter the lines that Tony Rice made well known.) Originally Posted by ragman1
The 'authentic' thing can't be faked. You have to do your apprenticeship.
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"Are you sure it isn't?"
No, but I haven't seen it online except CVH. And what's online, including here, has further reach than some good one on one teachers . I might remember from years ago that maybe Barry Greene does.
"The last thing anyone wants is an advice about theory from a GJ guitarist. Wonder why they don't really play anything outside of GJ? There are exceptions of course but in general that's the case."
Thing is he does play other styles, amd other instruments. He also knows enough theory to graduate university jazz bass and classical violin, teach theory at a university, and be a well regarded arranger. He's a good bebop player, half what he plays is bebop
"My guess is Joe is thinking mostly about the Barry Harris school."
It's a good example, not entirely. I was a Barry Harris devotee for quite a while, but it didn't offer me much in the way of improvising. It wasn't a waste, but it wasn't the most effective thing for me to be doing at the time.
I think he made a theory for jazz players to use that makes more sense than pure classical theory. In that way, it is still necessary to have vocab to analyze after the fact using that lens. I could create cool lines using the concepts but far from in real time.
"The whole anti-theory thing" again, no one is anti, just it seems to go unsaid you can learn to play at a decent level first. And those things you can play is what you can analyze.
Say I learn to play, then decide to learn theory. I learn I can play Ab minor for G7. But, to the theory first person that means "I can play melodic minor scale over G7" to the copy cat first person "I can play my Ab minor vocab over G7"
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This kind of like how i can take I55 OR I57 to 70 to get to St. Louis.
One involves an extra step but it might be quicker depending on other factors.
The problems only start when you ask "how do I get from Chicago to St. Louis?" and someone answers "St. Louis? Kansas City, that's where you should go."
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That makes sense. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I will add though that being hung up in unexpected traffic matters too, even if you do get to the same place!
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He started young in a musical family. For fun, I spotted several definite licks and lines in that vid that he always played on wholly traditional bluegrass songs and tunes. One he played an octave lower than he'd normally do it which was interesting (1.28-ish). He was playing m9 chords at one point too. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Side trips happen...sometimes you detour and end up having the best cheeseburger of your life... Originally Posted by joe2758
Sometimes you detour and you wait in line to see a ball of twine.
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The days of twine and roses laugh and run away Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
like a cheeseburgé ...
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