-
I’m learning to harmonize the meldy to Bluesette with sixths. I learned the grips on a Bb major scale. This makes sense: it’s a major third on the one, a major third on the two (Dorian), minor third on the three (Phrygian), … the same works if you think ‘the other way’ from the base note to the melody note in sixths. It fits the form of the modes.
But why do we play a minor third up from the melody notes on the Db? This is the five of Gb7. You would expect that to be a major third. If you think about it as C# in the B major scale, it’s Dorian, so the same thing happens: you would expect the harmonization to be a major chord. Can anyone explain where my thinking went wrong?
Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
-
04-14-2026 04:18 AM
-
You're playing it in Bb major? If you're referring to the minor 3rd from Db to Fb (E), that is the 5th and b7th of the Gb7 chord.
"If you think about it as C# in the B major scale, it’s Dorian"
Mixolydian: F#7 is the V7 of Bmaj.7
-
If I think about my question in another way it becomes:
Is there a way to very quickly know if the interval I build on a melody note that I play over a certain chord is major or minor?
Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
-
You seem to be confused about two things here:
Dorian is minor, not major.
Originally Posted by BartLutsch
Minor third up from Db is Fb (E). What you would expect in the key of B. It is the five of Gb7. Minor third up brings you to it's seventh (Fb). Why do you expect to go up a major third from the fifth of a dominant? Originally Posted by BartLutsch
-
You're asking about the interval you're playing, right? Originally Posted by BartLutsch
Two whole tones up from any note is major. One and a half tones is minor. So C to E is major, C to Eb is minor.
(NB: It has nothing to do with the melody, the key signature, or the chord you're playing over)
-
Originally Posted by BartLutsch
You learn the chord spellings and then which intervals are major or minor. It's not something you learn in a day, start with the chords in this song, write them out and see what the intervals are. Unless you have photographic memory, you have to do the work, not just look at a list. Play the intervals too, hear them as major or minor. Spend 10 minutes a day on this, it'll add up quickly.
Also, leave modes out of this song. It's not a modal tune, you're only making this harder with jargon.
-
The quality of intervals work no differently than the harmonized major scale, they take the quality of the parent scale you're using.
Major scale
C D E F G A B
Harmonized major scale, major scale built in 3rds.
C major 7 C E G B
D minor 7 D F A C
E minor 7 E G B D
F major 7 F A C E
G dominant 7 G B D F
A minor 7 A C E G
B half diminished B D F A
Same thing with intervals such as 3rds.
Major 3rd C E
Minor 3rd D F
Minor 3rd E G
Major 3rd F A
Major 3rd G B
Minor 3rd A C
Minor 3rd B D
Same thing with 6ths, you use the notes of the parent scale you're using.
Major 6th C A
Major 6th D B
Minor 6th E C
Major 6th F D
Major 6th G E
Minor 6th A F
Minor 6th B G
If the spot in the tune uses accidentals because it's using the tonality of the current chord, then use the scale for that chord. So if we're in C but it uses an Eb7 then use Eb mixolydian.
3rds:
Major 3rd Eb G
Minor 3rd F Ab
Minor 3rd G Bb
Major 3rd Ab C
Major 3rd Bb D
Minor 3rd C Eb
Major 3rd Db F
-
There goes OP's chance of learning anything.
-
^ Because of the thread, or my post?
-
The tonal center/scale will dictate whether the intervals are major or minor. The progression there is C#m7 >F#7 >B^7, i.e., IIm7 >V7 >I^7 in B major, so as Strat-itis suggested, you just need to harmonize the melody notes with the B major scale, there's no reason to be thinking about modes. Originally Posted by BartLutsch
-
You and Ragman did the work OP needs to do to actually figure this out. Just like how you can't pass a math exam by reading someone else's homework. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
^ Because of the thread, or my post?
They have the answer, but not the concept, and definitely not the sound in their head.
-
That's kind of odd criticism. I did explain the concept. And in order to illustrate concepts well, examples are very helpful. I did not do all the work for him, I illustrated using major and dominant, leaving him to figure out the rest. As far as showing him how it sounds, I wasn't under the impression that I was required to sight sing excerpts in order to give free advice.
-
Please don't, we've heard about your singing voice. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
-
It's not good.
-
Yea Mr Strat is right.
But Allan is also right about the very quickly part.
Nope. Just have to play a lot of harmonized major scales.
Some things I’ve found very useful:
1. play a lot of single string scales. This helps you see the fretboard a little more pianistically … you can just grab pairs of notes if you’re comfortable with the scales on the strings in question.
2. play a lot of intervals on string sets. For example pick thirds and play scales in all keys on each pair of strings.
3. use the alternate fingerings. Fifths and sixths in particular (fourths and sevenths with some stretching) can be played on adjacent strings, or on non consecutive strings. Play both.
4. “Splash around.” Got that term from Aaron parks. But pick a set of strings, loop a drone, and just improvise without thinking about the system. Grab groups of notes and try to make music.
5. be creative about switching string sets. I like using three note per string fingerings and harmonizing those in a set interval. That’s quite nice.
6. be aware that you don’t need to use the same interval for an entire melody, though it is easier to do so.
It’s a wide world. Quickly is no fun. Smell the roses etc.
-
You're missing the point. OP should have written it out, not you. There is no way you should sing it either, they need to work it out on their guitar. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
-
Wait —- I think it’s the direction of the interval you’re confusing. Originally Posted by BartLutsch
If that’s the case, just remember you ALWAYS measure an interval from the lowest note to the highest, in terms of pitch. So in the example, you’re not looking at third from Db. It’s a sixth from Fb. It doesn’t matter what the root of the chord is or the key center. That is always a sixth, no matter what.
As for the quality of the Fb, Tal and Strat have already mentioned that the Fb fits the prevailing harmony (Gb7)
-
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
-
Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I think I’ve finally understood what I was trying to do.
What I’m looking for is a quick way to harmonize a melody note with a sixth without always having to think through the full parent scale. Since a sixth can also be thought of as a third from the melody note downward, I was trying to find a faster mental system for deciding whether that should be a major or minor third.
What seems to help me is to relate the melody note to the chord and its modal function in that bar, rather than only to the overall key.
For example, over a Dm7 in a ii–V–I, if I play an A as the melody note, that is the 5th of the chord/scale. In my way of thinking, that A is also five steps away from the Dorian root/base, and that gives it a kind of ‘Aeolian’ relationship or distance. So if I harmonise the 5th of a dorian chord with a third that will become a minor third. That is why I was thinking of it as leading to a minor third in the harmonization. That was the system I was trying to build in my head: not necessarily a perfect theoretical explanation, but a quick practical shortcut.
At the same time, I sometimes feel like I lose way too much time overthinking this stuff instead of just playing tunes and listening to what better players actually do. I find it very hard to strike a balance between just playing intuitively and approaching everything like a classical musician, constantly trying to internalize theory that I may never actually use in practice.
That is probably my biggest struggle at the moment. I play every day, but I often feel like I’m not really getting results, and I honestly don’t know how to handle that balance. Perhaps I should play with others ?
Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
-
Perhaps I should play with others ?
Prioritize playing with others above all else. Playing with others will show you what you need to work on and what you can put aside for later.
-
Yes - just learn the spelling of chords cold, so well that you don't need to think about it. Then you'll immediately know whether a note is a chord tone or a non-chord tone. If it's a chord tone*, just use the adjacent chord tone ( a third up or down, doesn't matter) to harmonize it. If you want that to become a sixth, just change the octave of the harmonized note. Originally Posted by BartLutsch
This works because inverting any third makes it into a sixth. To be precise, inverting a major third creates a minor sixth, and inverting a minor third creates a major sixth.
Example: C to E is a major third; E to C is a minor sixth.
Another example: A to C is a minor third; C to A is a major sixth.
I think it has been suggested that you learn scales harmonized in sixths just to ingrain that muscle memory and aural memory. I agree - a little bit of work on this (learning to play Bluesette is a great practical study) and you'll find that you can harmonize melodies in sixths by ear with little effort.
* If it's a non-chord tone, harmonize it as a diminished chord (diminished triads consist of two minor thirds, so these notes always invert to major sixths.) OR treat it as a passing tone and harmonize it against a note of the previous or next chord in the progression if you want to keep the parallelism going. But... sometimes too much consistency is boring. You could also just not harmonize the non-chord tones.
HTH
SJ
-
It won't be quick until you've memorized it, that takes practice, as Peter suggested: "2. play a lot of intervals on string sets. For example pick thirds and play scales in all keys on each pair of strings." Originally Posted by BartLutsch
You'll need to practice playing the 3rds/6ths, etc., over tunes in real time - you must apply what you learn. Originally Posted by BartLutsch
-
Actually, no you haven't. Sorry! Originally Posted by BartLutsch
That's half the problem there. Never mind 'quick ways', learn it properly.What I’m looking for is a quick way
Take this quote. Frankly, it's complete gobbledegook, just a lot of misaligned ideas thrown together without understanding. You're trying to do this with your mind, not your hands.
Play a Dm at the first position. Find your note A on the 3rd string. The 6th is the F above that on the 1st string. How do I know without counting? Because I've done it before. I know what 6ths look like.For example, over a Dm7 in a ii–V–I, if I play an A as the melody note, that is the 5th of the chord/scale. In my way of thinking, that A is also five steps away from the Dorian root/base, and that gives it a kind of ‘Aeolian’ relationship or distance. So if I harmonise the 5th of a dorian chord with a third that will become a minor third.
Similarly with 3rds.
No math required, just find out how to play 6ths and 3rds. It's probably in every book on guitar. Not a theory book, a guitar book. There's no 'quick way', just playing it and finding out, that's all.
-
There's also YouTube. This guy's quite good. Get his PDF and do what it says.
-
By the way, since you asked about Aeolian and Dorian, all the modes from Ionian through to Locrian are based on a major scale. So if you want to do 6ths in Aeolian from your Dm you'd be using the F major scale. So all your B's will be flat and you have to adjust your fingering accordingly.
Similarly with Dorian, you'd be playing 6ths based the C major scale so all your B's will be natural... and so on with the other modes.
There's no shortcut to learning them. The best advice I can possibly give you is to apply them to a tune. Take an actual tune and work out how to do it. You learn by doing, and there's really no other way.
Best of luck with it. Our prayers are with you :-)
Reply With Quote
Has anyone tried the Raezer's Edge Twin 8 LW (Light Weight)
Today, 11:59 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos