Harmonisation with sixths and thirds

[BartLutsch]

Thanks! This is what I actually was doing, but I was trying to find a way to not go back to the parent scale everytime. Thanks for your lengthy post!

[BartLutsch]

Thanks for your nice reply!

I start to see where my mind went the wrong way:

- In the course I'm doing (from this website) I learned to harmonize the Major scale. After that, I'm learning a little harmonized version of Bluesette in which some melody notes are harmonized with sixths. It confused me because I started thinking starting from the melody note instead of from the scale tone. I accepted now that you can start on the scale tone and try to 'land' on the melody note.
- Then I got confused about melody notes that are not played on major chords. At first, I thought it was rather confusing to think of the melody notes as notes of the (parent) major scale. Instead I tried to think of them in relation to the chord they're played over. Why do I always overcomplicate things so much?

I'm going to practice harmonized scales now and I'm going to apply this to a couple more standards that I like. I hope that after time, I can do this more 'naturally'.

[AllanAllen]

At first, I thought it was rather confusing to think of the melody notes as notes of the (parent) major scale. Instead I tried to think of them in relation to the chord they're played over. Why do I always overcomplicate things so much?

This is all a part of the process, good job getting twisted up and then not quitting. The not quitting part is the most important part.

[AllanAllen]

Yes - just learn the spelling of chords cold, so well that you don't need to think about it. J

How do you advise tackling this? Flashcards? Rote memorization?

This is the kind of thing I read and think, yeah I should know that. But how?

I've asked other jazz guitarists I've met and they basically said "I did it so long ago, I don't remember how I memorized them"

I know a handful of major and minor spellings from things I've written, read or analyzed. But I don't know anything cold other than Fmaj7 because it's the spaces of treble clef.

[pamosmusic]

How do you advise tackling this? Flashcards? Rote memorization?

This is the kind of thing I read and think, yeah I should know that. But how?

I've asked other jazz guitarists I've met and they basically said "I did it so long ago, I don't remember how I memorized them"

I know a handful of major and minor spellings from things I've written, read or analyzed. But I don't know anything cold other than Fmaj7 because it's the spaces of treble clef.

I did the workbook pages in the book Jazzology on the way to soccer practice when I was fifteen. Lots and lots of reps.

[Tal_175]

Based on the description, Tom Quayle's fretboard visualization method seems like the same approach I used to learn the fretboard harmony (aside from learning the notes). I am sure many others also independently discovered the value of the intervallic approach. It's a skill you develop over time if you choose to view the fretboard from the intervallic lens. A lot of learning depends on where your attention is. Apparently he has a course (or an app?) to teach the method. Perhaps it would accelerate the process:

Ultimate Fretboard Visualization - Tom Quayle, David Beebee | Solo

[starjasmine]

How do you advise tackling this? Flashcards? Rote memorization?

If you know the "why" you'll never forget the "how".

In Western music all chords are built by stacking thirds; this is called "tertian harmony" and it's the "why" behind spelling chords.

So the first thing you do is learn the notes of the musical alphabet in thirds. Repeat to yourself over and over "CEGBDFA CEGBDFA CEGBDFA...". Do this at the bus stop, in the shower, whenever you have a few minutes to kill. Do it so much that you can rattle off "CEGBDFA" without thinking.

Now learn to do it from any starting letter: BDFACEG... ACEGBDF... FACEGBD, etc.

Next, learn the "why" behind the construction of major scales in different key signatures, so you can apply key signatures to this string of letters in thirds.

Play the notes C D E F G A B... and then stop. You REALLY want to hear that B resolve to C, don't you? B (the seventh degree of the scale) is called the "leading tone" because it leads your ear so strongly back to C (the tonic.) The leading tone is a half step below the tonic.

Now play G A B C D E F .... and then stop. In this case, your ear does not crave hearing the F resolve to G nearly as much, because it's a whole step below the tonic. It's not a leading tone.

Now try this again, sharping the F to F#. Play G A B C D E F#.... and then stop. You really want to hear the F# leading tone resolve to G, because you have now recreated the WWHWWWH pattern of the major scale starting on the new tonic of G.

The key signature for each sharp key differs from the one prior or next by exactly one sharp: each new sharp creates the leading tone for the new key.
C - no sharps CDEFGAB
G - one sharp GABCDEF#
D - two sharps: all of the sharps from G major plus C# (creates the leading tone that is a half-step below the new tonic of D) DEF#GABC#
A - three sharps: all of the sharps from D major plus G# (creates the leading tone that is a half-step below the new tonic of A) ABC#DEF#G#
etc, for all 12 major keys

notice that we are adding sharps one at a time, in circle-of-fifths order. Memorizing the musical alphabet in fifths so you can just rattle it off helps you to memorize the order in which sharps appear in a key signature: FCGDAEB, FCGDAEB, over and over again while waiting for the elevator or sitting at a stoplight...

Flat keys work similarly: each new key differs from the previous or last key by exactly one flat; in this case, the flats change an augmented 4th to a perfect fourth to create the WWHWWWH major scale pattern.
C - no flats CDEFGAB
F - one flat FGABbCDE
Bb - two flats: all the flats from F plus one more to make a fourth step that is a P4 instead of an aug 4 : BbCDEbFGA
Eb - three flats: all the flats from Bb plus one more to make a fourth step that is a P4 instead of an aug 4 : EbFGAbBb
etc for all 12 major keys

Notice that we are adding flats one at a time, in circle of fourths order. Memorizing the musical alphabet in fourths helps you to remember the order in which flats appear in a key signature: BEADGCF, BEADGCF, BEADGCF....

Now you can very quickly and easily spell any key signature.

If you don't already know it, stacking thirds based on each note in the scale gives you
major triads for I, IV and V
minor triads for ii, iii, and vi
one diminished triad (minor triad with a flatted fifth) for vii

Thus, if you know the musical alphabet in thirds, you can spell a stack of thirds from any root note, then apply accidentals from the key signature to make that triad major or minor according to how it functions in the key you are in.

BQ: Natural minor keys are the same as major keys starting from the sixth degree of the major scale. That is, A natural minor has the same notes (and key signature) as C major: ABCDEFG. Want that leading tone? Sharp the G to get ABCDEFG#. This has the added bonus of making the v minor chord of natural minor into a V major chord in harmonic minor.

A skill you can develop in parallel is to spell triads intervallically from any root note.
- A major triad in root position has a major third on the bottom (root to third) and a minor triad on top of that (third to fifth), with a perfect fifth between the root and the fifth.
- A minor triad in root position has a minor third on the bottom (root to third) and a major triad on top of that (third to fifth), with a perfect fifth between the root and the fifth.
So you can also learn to construct triads from any root note (the guitar fretboard is a great graphical resource for visualizing intervals) without regard to key signatures, etc just by learning the notes on the fretboard and the "shapes" that make certain intervals.

I'll stop now... I hope this helped. Note that it takes time and effort to develop this skill. Someone might be able to explain this to you in 10 minutes on youtube but it will likely take months of daily effort to actually acquire the skill to spell chords quickly. It is also critical that you connect this theoretical learning to your EAR and to your FINGERS, so that you can use it on the bandstand instead of only in an internet forum. Realistically, expect to put in a year of serious effort to build this level of skill. But it is doable - lots of people do it. Go for it!

SJ

[AllanAllen]

Star jasmine

Thank you I really appreciate the long write up. I know the theory behind it, but just not the spelling of the chords. I never thought to start saying the scales in third which is something I play often. I have it in my ear aurally(the sound), but not conceptually(the note names).

My goal of learning how to spell chords offhand is to use that knowledge for Freddie Green style jazz rhythm guitar. Since you want everything to be as close as possible (preferably all on the D string) and the four notes of a seventh chord hold the same weight in that style.

[AllanAllen]

I did the workbook pages in the book Jazzology on the way to soccer practice when I was fifteen. Lots and lots of reps.

This gave me the bright idea to google Chord Spelling Worksheet.

Chord Spelling Worksheet (Triads) | PDF | Musical Compositions | Musical Techniques

[AllanAllen]

This super cool too

Free Music Theory Worksheets!

[pamosmusic]

This gave me the bright idea to google Chord Spelling Worksheet.

Chord Spelling Worksheet (Triads) | PDF | Musical Compositions | Musical Techniques

music theory dot net also

[starjasmine]

@AllenAllen - It's good that you looked this stuff up, but do learn to spell away from the cheatsheets... don't let them turn into a crutch.

[Strat-itis]

How do you advise tackling this? Flashcards? Rote memorization?

This is the kind of thing I read and think, yeah I should know that. But how?

I've asked other jazz guitarists I've met and they basically said "I did it so long ago, I don't remember how I memorized them"

I know a handful of major and minor spellings from things I've written, read or analyzed. But I don't know anything cold other than Fmaj7 because it's the spaces of treble clef.

Memorize the formulas.

Major 7: Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 7th.
Major 6: Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th.
Dom 7: Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th.
Minor 7: Root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th.
Minor 6: Root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th.
Half dim: Root, minor 3rd, flat 5, minor 7th.

Etc.

If you can't find the intervals then build them by half steps. You need to be able to spell arps for soloing.

[AllanAllen]

Memorize the formulas.

Major 7: Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 7th.
Major 6: Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th.
Dom 7: Root, major 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th.
Minor 7: Root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, minor 7th.
Minor 6: Root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th.
Half dim: Root, minor 3rd, flat 5, minor 7th.

Etc.

If you can't find the intervals then build them by half steps. You need to be able to spell arps for soloing.

I can already do this, it's not helpful for navigating a 4 chord to the bar big band chart in real time. It's helpful for a lot of other stuff. But knowing the chord spelling is what I need.

[AllanAllen]

@AllenAllen - It's good that you looked this stuff up, but do learn to spell away from the cheatsheets... don't let them turn into a crutch.

Did you click the first link? It's a worksheet with blanks to fill in the chord spellings, not a reference sheet.

The second is a website of teaching materials with more blanks to fill in, as well as digital flashcards.

[pamosmusic]

I can already do this, it's not helpful for navigating a 4 chord to the bar big band chart in real time. It's helpful for a lot of other stuff. But knowing the chord spelling is what I need.

Is that helpful for navigating a four chord to the bar big band chart in real time though?

[starjasmine]

Did you click the first link? It's a worksheet with blanks to fill in the chord spellings, not a reference sheet.

The second is a website of teaching materials with more blanks to fill in, as well as digital flashcards.

I admit that I did not look at either link. I still haven't looked at most of it ;-) but fill-in-the blank exercises and flashcards seem like a valuable tool.

A game you can play along those lines is to roll dice and then spell the key signature according to the number that comes up. For example, if you roll a three, you should immediately recite that three sharps is A major (F# C# G#) or F# minor. Or three flats is Eb major /C minor.

You can take this a step further with two dies - one for the key signature and one for the chord. Say you roll a four and a two. The two chord in four sharps (FCGD) key of E is F#mi : F# A C#.

Every now and then throw in a vii chord, just so you learn those.

If you want to challenge yourself a bit further, interpret the dice in a minor key as well: Our four and two example is the ii chord in F# minor: G#dim == G# B D

Once you are comfortable with triads, play the game by spelling 7th chords and 9th chords. Try spelling the altered dominant of your choice any time the V scale degree comes up.

Or play the game using random numbers you encounter IRL: Prices at the gas station, grocery store, etc.

I don't think this skill is always directly applicable to playing a four-chords-to-the-bar chord chart, but knowing how to spell might help you to identify common tones, guide tones, and so on, which might help you to simplify those four-to-the-bar chords down to a line that moves through something like A13 A7b13 A7 A7#11.

[AllanAllen]

Is that helpful for navigating a four chord to the bar big band chart in real time though?

My hope is that it will be. I don't see how knowing the intervals of these chords help me hit nearby tones.

For example,

Dbmaj9 Gb9 F7b9 Bbm

I'm hoping it's easier to recall

Db F Ab Eb
Gb Bb Db Ab
F A C Gb
Bb Db F Ab

and an implied tenor line can simply be Ab Ab A Ab. There you go, Freddie Green.

I should also start working charts out like this. It wasn't too bad. Repetition repetition repetition.

[Christian Miller]

It can be useful to think of chords not in relation to the root, but to the bass.

[pamosmusic]

My hope is that it will be. I don't see how knowing the intervals of these chords help me hit nearby tones.

For example,

Dbmaj9 Gb9 F7b9 Bbm

I'm hoping it's easier to recall

Db F Ab Eb
Gb Bb Db Ab
F A C Gb
Bb Db F Ab

and an implied tenor line can simply be Ab Ab A Ab. There you go, Freddie Green.

I should also start working charts out like this. It wasn't too bad. Repetition repetition repetition.

you left out the seventh in all of them?

and maybe … but learning shells is probably getting you there quicker. In which case you’re moving with stronger notes. Not sure Freddie was all that interested in the ninths and such. From time to time probably … but fifth, ninth, fifth, ninth doesn’t strike me as terribly Greeny.

Grabbing shells and just playing the tenor voice for 7th 3rd 3rd 7th on the other hand ……..

Anyway — don’t get me wrong — I’m a theory dude for sure. I have notebooks filled with tables of spellings and chord synonyms and stuff, but I also think it’s important to be realistic about what the theory will do for you. Many things, but I’m not convinced it will do that.

I played a big band gig this week that was all Basie stuff and I played root and D string as loud as I could with the volume down all night. It was glorious.

[AllanAllen]

Oh you're right I should have changed

Dbmaj9 Gb9 F7b9 Bbm

into

Dbmaj7 Gb7 F7 and Bbm7

Well, I did hit the Ab 7 of Bbm.

[AllanAllen]

It can be useful to think of chords not in relation to the root, but to the bass.

I've had to write 2 guitar charts off a bass chart and both times the bass was playing root and fifth with a chromatic here and there. It was so far removed from what I expected I had to look at horn charts to see if some things were major or minor, all that transposing was a real headache and then it turned out the piano player had a paper copy of the "guitar" chart which I took a picture of and that's what I use for the tunes now.

Guitar is in quotes because he's got a piano chart with piano crossed off and guitar written in and chord names handwritten all over it.

I really love how chaotic big band logisitics can be.

Unless you are talking about slash chords vs inversions.... and not the instrument bass.

[Christian Miller]

JP Rameau cast such a long shadow!

I object to that sort of thing being a counterpoint guy (chords aren’t made of thirds, educators are lazy - to paraphrase Hal Galper) but I have to be impressed by the intellectual reach of an old dead French guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

Do you have a YouTube video to give me context to your reference?

[Strat-itis]

I can already do this, it's not helpful for navigating a 4 chord to the bar big band chart in real time. It's helpful for a lot of other stuff. But knowing the chord spelling is what I need.

Convert that to notes. It isn't beginning guitar where people think cowboy chords are their own separate thing. The formula is the same for building chords whether it's intervals, shapes, or notes.

Db half diminished?
Root, b3, b5, b7
Db -> up to the b3 -> E -> up to the b5 -> G -> up to the b7 (or back a whole step) -> B

Db, E, G, B. Db half dim spelled.