Fats Navarro - Lady Bird Solo -- Db over Bb7?

[josh74]

I transcribed the 1st phrase of Fats Navarro's solo on Lady Bird and wonder if anyone has a view on the Db chord he plays over the Bb7 in bar 4? It occurs to me that Db is the tri-tone sub of rhte V chord. So is he ignoring the Bb7 and playing a regular V chord? The last beat could be either a Bb7 or a Db. Interested on other perspectives on that line.

Thanks!

[GuyBoden]

Excellent, Fats Navarro is my fav bebop era trumpet player.

If it sounds good, it is good.

[Clausstrom]

I think it's just a note that gives a little sparkle. Gives an altered sound in an otherwise very diatonic phrase.

[Tal_175]

The tune is called Lady Bird. There is another standard called Lazy Bird.

[josh74]

Thanks. Typo. Corrected.

[Tal_175]

Regarding your question, yes, Bb7, G7, Db7 and E7 are interchangeable melodically and harmonically in the bebop tradition. They share the same diminished chord. But there are also other ways to view this (Bb7 is a modal interchange chord for the dominant function, E7 is its tritone but also the V of the relative minor etc etc.).

[josh74]

It sounds good and it is good.

I'm looking for a theory of how to think about the line that I can use to build my own lines.

[Mick-7]

It sounds good and it is good.

I'm looking for a theory of how to think about the line that I can use to build my own lines.

Its' really just a blues thing, playing the minor 3rd (Db in this instance) over a dominant chord, nothing technically fancy about it.

[josh74]

Right. I didn't see that. Db Eb E F Ab Bb are all from Bb blues scale.

[josh74]

Regarding your question, yes, Bb7, G7, Db7 and E7 are interchangeable melodically and harmonically in the bebop tradition. They share the same diminished chord. But there are also other ways to view this (Bb7 is a modal interchange chord for the dominant function, E7 is its tritone but also the V of the relative minor etc etc.).

Do you think Fats was thinking about substituting Db7 for Bb7 (via the diminished relationship)?

[Tal_175]

Do you think Fats was thinking about substituting Db7 for Bb7 (via the diminished relationship)?

Actually I am not sure. I posted my comment based on your post regarding the use of Db. Now that I looked at the transcription, I would interpret the line differently. I think he is playing over the barline in the first beat of Bb7. So he is continuing his Fminor idea over the first beat. In the rest of the bar he is using some dominant tension notes, b5, #9, b9 etc to lead to Cmajor. I am not sure he is thinking of a scale, are at least there are many "scalar" interpretations that are consistent with these tensions.

[josh74]

I agree with you about the 1st beat being a continuation of the F-.

Th strong beasts are #9, #11 and b7; and if he played a D instead of the Eb, it would be a diminished run ending with an enclosure of the G.

When I try playing that, it sounds pretty different than with the Eb. So even though it's on an off-beat, it still changes the sound of the line.

Wonder if there's some convention or language that could explain that approach or if it's just something that happened in the moment and sounds cool.

Maybe i'm overthinking this

Josh

[Tal_175]

I agree with you about the 1st beat being a continuation of the F-.

Th strong beasts are #9, #11 and b7; and if he played a D instead of the Eb, it would be a diminished run ending with an enclosure of the G.

When I try playing that, it sounds pretty different than with the Eb. So even though it's on an off-beat, it still changes the sound of the line.

Wonder if there's some convention or language that could explain that approach or if it's just something that happened in the moment and sounds cool.

Maybe i'm overthinking this

Josh

The last three beats of the Bb7 bar is consistent with the view that he played Db7->Cmajor using dominant language for this type of half step resolution.

[josh74]

I think it's just a note that gives a little sparkle. Gives an altered sound in an otherwise very diatonic phrase.

I'm asking about the run Db Eb Fb F Ab (not just the 1 note) -- which to me looks like he's playing a Db chord.

[BreckerFan]

I think I'm inclined to think about it as Db. First two beats are an enclosure targeting Db, and a passing tone on the + of 2. Beat three is the #9 to 3 sound that's very bebop. The last beat I think is more an enclosure around G than a part of Db.

It's true that all the notes kind of fit Bb blues but it doesn't really sound to me like Bb blues; the targeting of the Db is too strong.

[Mick-7]

I think I'm inclined to think about it as Db. First two beats are an enclosure targeting Db, and a passing tone on the + of 2. Beat three is the #9 to 3 sound that's very bebop. The last beat I think is more an enclosure around G than a part of Db.

It's true that all the notes kind of fit Bb blues but it doesn't really sound to me like Bb blues; the targeting of the Db is too strong.

josh74 said "blues scale," the entire IIm7-V7 line is diatonic to the key of Ab, i.e, it's an Ab major scale. If it had gone to AbM7 rather than CM7, we would not be having this conversation (hopefully). There is the one E nat. note over the Fm7 chord but it slurs up to F - pretty common.

P.S. - Actually it's all F minor (the relative minor of Ab major) - F nat. minor & F melodic minor.

[BreckerFan]

josh74 said "blues scale," the entire IIm7-V7 line is diatonic to the key of Ab, i.e, it's an Ab major scale. If it had gone to AbM7 rather than CM7, we would not be having this conversation (hopefully). There is the one E nat. note over the Fm7 chord but it slurs up to F - pretty common.

P.S. - Actually it's all F minor (the relative minor of Ab major) - F nat. minor & F melodic minor.

I read what he said, which is why I said Bb blues. In context that's entirely interchangeable with "blues scale".

The fact that you can think of most of the notes as diatonic to a certain key doesn't mean that's what an improviser is thinking of. All of the notes in a C maj7 arpeggio are diatonic to G man, but if someone plays D B C E G B, that's pretty clearly implying C Maj 7, not G major. Just saying it's diatonic to G tells you nothing about what's really going on.

My point is that the structure of the line to me is targeting Db, because the first two beats feature an enclosure that quite clearly lands on Db on a strong beat. I agree that it's not a line that is entirely determinate to one key (the second two beats could easily be a lydian dominant sound over Bb7). But I think the very clear targeting of the Db, which is not diatonic to the Bb7 chord that's being played, is evidence that there is some implication of Db major (triad, not scale).

But really I don't think chord scale theory is the correct way to think about something like this. I think it's two-ish beats of bebop enclosure around Db, and two-ish beats of bebop enclosure around G.

[Strat-itis]

BH fam? G is the V chord, Bb is the backdoor dominant, Db and E are more fam?

[ragman1]

E7, Db7 and G7 are subs for Bb7 and I've tried that line over all of them. It fits all of them but none of them precisely.

[Strat-itis]

E7, Db7 and G7 are subs for Bb7 and I've tried that line over all of them. It fits all of them but none of them precisely.

Yep. BH codified them post hoc as fam. They all work but introduce interesting dissonant tones which you wouldn't normally think to use as alterations.

[Mick-7]

I think you folks are over analyzing this, he played an F minor scale line over Fm7/Bb7, which is quite common. This is a musician improvising, not a music student applying a clever harmonic device he's learned.

[Tal_175]

To those unfamiliar with the bebop vocabulary the line may seem like he is just doodling F minor scale but there is a clear idiomatic dominant resolution pattern in the line

[garybaldy]

I wonder how Fats would explain it!!

[BreckerFan]

I don't think it's overanalyzing, because bebop is entirely about placing strong notes on strong beats. Db is not a strong note of F minor. So targeting it with an enclosure and clearly landing on it on a strong beat isn't something a bebop musician thinking F minor would do.

Also I'm not sure how "this is a musician improvising" makes all of that irrelevant. Improvising musicians play interesting harmonic ideas/substitutions all the time. We get an idea of what they're thinking by transcribing and analyzing the language. It's not the case that whatever's simplest must be the what's happening.

Again I'll say I don't think this is a chord scale thing. It's enclosure to Db, #9 to maj3 bebop language, and altered enclosure to G.

[Mick-7]

I don't think it's overanalyzing, because bebop is entirely about placing strong notes on strong beats. Db is not a strong note of F minor. So targeting it with an enclosure and clearly landing on it on a strong beat isn't something a bebop musician thinking F minor would do.

Also I'm not sure how "this is a musician improvising" makes all of that irrelevant. Improvising musicians play interesting harmonic ideas/substitutions all the time. We get an idea of what they're thinking by transcribing and analyzing the language. It's not the case that whatever's simplest must be the what's happening.

Again I'll say I don't think this is a chord scale thing. It's enclosure to Db, #9 to maj3 bebop language, and altered enclosure to G.

I've seen no evidence that Bird, Monk and the other fathers of bebop thought about music in such an abstract way, where they'll place the strong notes in their phrases and other such minutiae. They studied the playing of their musical heroes (it is said that Bird memorized most of Lester Young's solos) and took off from there, all this sort of Berklee analysis came much later. It's a bit silly to turn them into music theory devotees, they were not.