Fats Navarro - Lady Bird Solo -- Db over Bb7?

[grahambop]

Funnily enough, last night I was watching a John Abercrombie video where he says ‘if a student asks me what should they play on a B7 chord, I say I don’t care, what’s more important is where is it going?’ and he talks about lines moving towards a resolution point.

So that’s how I would view what’s happening here, Fats is just playing some Db stuff because that always resolves nicely to C major (i.e. from a half step above).

I don’t think it matters at all that it’s happening over a Bb7 chord, it’s irrelevant. He’s playing looking forwards to the target chord, rather than worrying too much about the one he’s on which precedes it.

Also it’s probably a tritone resolution he’s used a million times over G7 to C so just came naturally.

[BreckerFan]

I've seen no evidence that Bird, Monk and the other fathers of bebop thought about music in such an abstract way, where they'll place the strong notes in their phrases and other such minutiae. They studied the playing of their musical heroes (it is said that Bird memorized most of Lester Young's solos) and took off from there, all this sort of Berklee analysis came much later. It's a bit silly to turn them into music theory devotees, they were not.

A few things:
-Personal incredulity and lack of familiarity aren't arguments.

-Nothing I've said has anything to do with Berklee. I didn't go, and I've never studied with anyone who did that I'm aware of. But even if that weren't the case, that doesn't make it wrong.

-it is quite common knowledge that the sound of bebop language is achieved by placing strong notes on strong beats. That's the whole point of bebop scales for example. Kreisberg, Chad LB, I'm sure BH, all talk about this.

-enclosures and chromatic approach notes are not terribly complex or abstract music theoretic concepts. They're very prominent and well recognized features of bebop.

-I never claimed that he was thinking of specifically "enclosure, chromatic approach, enclosure." I have no idea what he was thinking. In all probability he was thinking Db bebop resolving to C, like Graham says, if he knew theory at all. It could be he was just playing melodic language he had absorbed organically. My point is that the clarity with which Db is emphasized strongly indicates he is not thinking "noodle in F minor".

-The most important point is that *the line does not at all sound like F minor*. When you enclose Db on a strong beat, it sounds like Db. If you want to emphasize F minor, you would be targeting F, Ab, or C.

[Mick-7]

-The most important point is that *the line does not at all sound like F minor*. When you enclose Db on a strong beat, it sounds like Db. If you want to emphasize F minor, you would be targeting F, Ab, or C.

To state the obvious: a scale is a particular set of notes, one can emphasize whatever notes within in it one wants to suit the chord progression, e.g., the F nat. minor scale contains Ab, Db & Eb major triads. Some musicians think in broader terms about what they play, this was even more true back in the 30's and 40's when bebop was born.

[BreckerFan]

The fact that you can think of most of the notes as diatonic to a certain key doesn't mean that's what an improviser is thinking of. All of the notes in a C maj7 arpeggio are diatonic to G man, but if someone plays D B C E G B, that's pretty clearly implying C Maj 7, not G major. Just saying it's diatonic to G tells you nothing about what's really going on.

I repeat.

[pamosmusic]

Somehow examining the line for context and idiomatic vocabulary has become “too Berklee” but calling it a scale and being done with it is not.

we are through the looking glass

[Christian Miller]

I think Mon and bird would have understood the concept of lower neighbour tone, whatever they called it. Seeing as those have been around for hundreds of years and stuff.

Not so sure about some JGO members.


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[Strat-itis]

So it could possibly be:

1. F minor
2. G7 alt
3. Db fam

It could reasonably be any one of them and we couldn't know for sure without Fats telling us. F minor is the simplest explanation. G7 alt seems rational also since he goes from Eb to E which is kind of more of an alt thing. Db fam is possible also. You can't dismiss it by saying music was a traditional process then - they had knowledge back then too. You think we invented knowledge in the modern age and they were just idiot savants back then with no knowledge and all intuition?

[GuyBoden]

Using "Chord Scale Theory" to analyse Bebop will be a long, long, long road to nowhere fast.

[Strat-itis]

^ I don't know what that's supposed to mean. They stuck scales over chords in bebop. Although it wasn't the Abersold canned version of this specific tech scale over this chord every time. Their devices were way more organic and traditionally developed.

[Mick-7]

So it could possibly be:

1. F minor
2. G7 alt
3. Db fam

It could reasonably be any one of them and we couldn't know for sure without Fats telling us. F minor is the simplest explanation. G7 alt seems rational also since he goes from Eb to E which is kind of more of an alt thing. Db fam is possible also. You can't dismiss it by saying music was a traditional process then - they had knowledge back then too. You think we invented knowledge in the modern age and they were just idiot savants back then with no knowledge and all intuition?

The line in question is over a Fm7 > Bb7 - to C^7, and it starts with an Fm arpeggio and ends on the note G, so the resolution could just have easily been to Eb^7 or IIIm7 (to I^7 from IIm7>V7). F minor scales - F nat., F dorian, F harmonic minor, etc., contain all the notes he played and would be the first scale choices that would occur to me.

And in my experience, considering the overall scope and sound of a phrase is more productive than getting bogged down in technical minutiae such as the order in which the notes were played, whether they landed on strong or weak notes, etc.

[GuyBoden]

Using "Chord Scale Theory" to analyse Bebop will be a long, long, long road to nowhere fast.

^ I don't know what that's supposed to mean. They stuck scales over chords in bebop. Although it wasn't the Abersold canned version of this specific tech scale over this chord every time. Their devices were way more organic and traditionally developed.

Don't let my comments stop you from using "Chord Scale Theory" to analyse Bebop.

I was taught a similar "Chord Scale Theory" method 20-25 years ago to play jazz.

"Chord Scale Theory" didn't work for me, but obviously it has worked for others.

Edit: Back to listening to the great Fats Navarro:

[Christian Miller]

^ I don't know what that's supposed to mean. They stuck scales over chords in bebop. Although it wasn't the Abersold canned version of this specific tech scale over this chord every time. Their devices were way more organic and traditionally developed.

I think that’s quite a reasonable conclusion. Tbh a lot of this is hard to substantiate, it’s not like there’s many recorded methodologies for improv from that era (excepting early Tristano and a few others) but I’d probably agree with this.

They definitely play scales on the records

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[GuyBoden]

I think that’s quite a reasonable conclusion. Tbh a lot of this is hard to substantiate, it’s not like there’s many recorded methodologies for improv from that era (excepting early Tristano and a few others) but I’d probably agree with this.

They definitely play scales on the records

Also, obviously, George Russell's 'Lydian Chromatic Concept' was a method of applying 'a scale to a chord' (but, that's early 1950's not 1940's bebop).

But yes, listening to 1940's Bebop, they definitely play scalar lines, but usually over more than a single chord to my ears.

Edit: I wonder what Charlie Parker was thinking when he played this line in Bird's Nest:

[BreckerFan]

And in my experience, considering the overall scope and sound of a phrase is more productive than getting bogged down in technical minutiae such as the order in which the notes were played, whether they landed on strong or weak notes, etc.

The overall sound of a phrase is determined by the details of the phrase.

Does this sound like F minor to you?

[BreckerFan]

I could see Db as a lower neighbor tone if there was a stronger resolution to some F minor vocabulary.

Like I originally said, those four beats are not entirely determinate. Beats 1-3 sound much more like Db than F minor. Beat 4 sounds like an enclosure to G. But we're talking about 4 beats with a fair bit of chromaticism.

I don't think reducing it all to a scale does justice to the structure of the line and the sound that structure creates. Targeting and emphasizing certain notes creates a certain sound. Recognizing that that's happening is necessary to be able to reproduce that sound. Just saying "play F minor" does not help you achieve the sound at all. That's why I don't think chord scale theory is the right tool here. Bebop uses scalar runs, but there's a lot in addition to scalar runs that you need to do to sound bebop.

[Christian Miller]

Also, obviously, George Russell's 'Lydian Chromatic Concept' was a method of applying 'a scale to a chord' (but, that's early 1950's not 1940's bebop).

But yes, listening to 1940's Bebop, they definitely play scalar lines, but usually over more than a single chord to my ears.

Edit: I wonder what Charlie Parker was thinking when he played this line in Bird's Nest:

Adim7?


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[ragman1]

I think that line is so chromatic that it's hard to tell what it is.

[paulkogut]

I forget who said this, but it was an observation that what most of us consider 'real' bebop is a second generation distillation by folk like Sonny Stitt and Red Garland. The pioneers were a lot more individual and idiosyncratic ...

My gut says Fats' thought process was 'play the blues' over Bb7 and then the b3 led his ear to a Db goes to C resolution, but that's just my opinion, man....

I think it's worthwhile to try any of the speculated approaches and see what happens. Best wishes for everyone's music!

PK

[paulkogut]

I also think that different instruments cultivate different thought processes. At any given moment, most of us feel we are playing around a particular chord grip with a particular scale fingering. I'm not sure that trumpet/flugle players conceptualize and choose their notes in the same way...

[Mick-7]

The overall sound of a phrase is determined by the details of the phrase.

Does this sound like F minor to you?

As I said earlier, a scale is just a particular set of notes, if the phrase I play sounds like a particular scale, I'm probably not doing a good job of using it to improvise. But yes, I think F minor scales could be a good choice for a Fm7/Bb7 progression, don't you?

[Mick-7]

Also, obviously, George Russell's 'Lydian Chromatic Concept' was a method of applying 'a scale to a chord' (but, that's early 1950's not 1940's bebop).

But yes, listening to 1940's Bebop, they definitely play scalar lines, but usually over more than a single chord to my ears.

Edit: I wonder what Charlie Parker was thinking when he played this line in Bird's Nest:

No mystery there, IIm7-V7b9-I in Bb major, i.e., so the Bb major scale fits, or it's locrian mode (from A minor) if you want to be more precise - beboppers often add the b6th to the major scale, as Barry Harris will tell you.

[Tal_175]

I think Mick has his own way of looking at vocabulary. I remember in a similar thread, not long ago there was a dominant line that was a straight run of bebop scale (or in the BH world dominant scale with a half note on the 7th). He called it major scale with a blue note (b5). Technically that also describes the same set of notes but to me it totally misses the point of the phrase and how it relates to the changes. I mean you can analyze every phrase in the 12 note system (from Mozart to AC/DC) as belonging to one of 12 major keys or their relative minors. To me that doesn't convey an insight into the style or vocabulary. But to each their own.

[Mick-7]

I think Mick his own way of looking at vocabulary. I remember in a similar thread, not long ago there was a dominant line that was a straight run of bebop scale (or in the BH world dominant scale with a half note on the 7th). He called it major scale with a blue note (b5). Technically that also describes the same set of notes but to me it totally misses the point of the phrase and how it relates to the changes. I mean you can analyze every phrase in the 12 note system (from Mozart to AC/DC) as belonging to one of 12 major keys or their relative minors. To me that doesn't convey an insight into the style or vocabulary. But to each their own.

Well, probably guilty as charged, I look for the underlying structure - the scale or tonality - and let my ears tell me the particulars. Can learning and applying theoretical schemes help me become a good improvisor? I suppose it could help a bit but I'd put it far down on the "to do" list of how to get there.

[BreckerFan]

As I said earlier, a scale is just a particular set of notes, if the phrase I play sounds like a particular scale, I'm probably not doing a good job of using it to improvise. But yes, I think F minor scales could be a good choice for a Fm7/Bb7 progression, don't you?

The question is not whether you can play F minor over F minor. The question is whether this line in particular is best understood as F minor or sounds like F minor. Again, analyzing a C Maj7 arpeggio as diatonic to G major is not "wrong", but it's also not helpful. Analysis should ideally be useful in understanding and applying the concepts going on, no? If you tell someone "play F minor", what is the likelihood they will play something like this line? What about if you say "play an enclosure around Db and then around G"?

[GuyBoden]

No mystery there, IIm7-V7b9-I in Bb major, i.e., so the Bb major scale fits, or it's locrian mode (from A minor) if you want to be more precise - beboppers often add the b6th to the major scale, as Barry Harris will tell you.

Mick, yes that works very well indeed. Well done.

Bb Bebop Major has the Gb.

Edit: But, David Baker invented the term 'Bebop Major' in the 1970's-80's.