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so in my studies A minor
I am working on some minors and I am running into a small degree of confusion
first I am seeing this ( as an example ) as an A minor Dorian from G maj one sharp F# but it is marked as no sharps or flats leading me at first to think ot was from C maj.
am I missing something?
alsoI am running into the add 11 chord and to me it look just like a sus 4 seems I recall reading the add ment it was a octive above the rest.
but though I would seek some clarification and to when its a add or just a sus?
I can except the lack of the third because everything is A minor but I did want to ask should the third be present?
thank all!
pan
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04-20-2025 01:08 PM
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That chart looks like it's focused on finding playable ways to get each note of the scale to be the highest note in the voicing.
So, if you want an F# as the top note, you could think of it as coming from Am Dorian, if you find that sort of thing helpful.
In the voicing with D on top, there's no 3rd, but that's a useful voicing. It's A E G D. This is a tricky chord to name.
Am11(no 3rd) is close, but has a B.
Am11 would be, technically, A C E G B D. A good way to play it would be to take up piano.
A7sus4 would be A D E G. Same notes, but the D is a 4th, not an 11th, implying, to me at least, that it's in the middle of the voicing, not at the top. Some players might not consider the difference important, but they sound very different to my ear.
IMO, there is no "should" about whether to include the 3rd. You like the sound, or you don't. You can get a 3rd in there if you prefer (raise the A on the D string to C).Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 04-20-2025 at 04:05 PM.
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pan60 -
The notation on your chart has no key signature because it's only an instruction page. The names of the notes are written above them.
If a piece of music was in C major or A minor then it would have no key signature but all the F#'s would be marked where necessary. If the key signature of the piece already includes F#, the F's wouldn't need to be marked within the score.
I hope that's clear. If not, I'm sure it will become clear later!
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The difference between Am11 and Am7sus4 is complex. I suggest you look it up because it involves notes which are included and others not included. I won't go into all that here, it's not simple.
The Am11 chord is easy and there are various ways to play it. See any chord chart.
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Oh, all right very quickly.
Am11 is the Am triad ACE with the 7 and the 11 which is D. Theoretically, it should also include the 9, which is B, but usually doesn't. This is an Am11:
The Am7sus4 is the triad plus the 7 (G): ACEG but the 3rd, C, is replaced with D, the sus 4 note.
Because the chord has no 3rd it can be either major or minor. Like this:
Short version, the Am11 has the 3rd, the Am7sus4 doesn't. Still, look it up properly.
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It's an Am6 chord: A-C-E-F# (= F#m7b5), which as you said, is diatonic to G major (it's the vii chord in G).
Originally Posted by pan60
You are correct, the 3rd (C) is absent so technically it's not a minor chord, it's an A7sus, but it's usually called A11. Originally Posted by pan60
Am11:
| x-x-5-5-3-5 |
| 5-x-5-5-3-(0) | - etc.
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Guitar isn’t piano, our notes are limited by the physicality of the instrument so an add11 and a sus can be the same grip.
Especially in the reality of playing with others.
Our chords merely have to imply the sound.
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all the other charts do include key signatures all of wich base on the presented scale I am not see them as written
here is the Ab for example
I am struggling to see this has seven flats?
I am using this information to better my understanding of the theory side of this and as a tool to help in reading its been a struggle but am am staying with : )
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Sounds to me like you need a better book. I thought that right away but, you know, it's your book.
Ab major is four flats. Ab minor has seven.
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I will do some more digging but if I am following
because it is minor it is not a sus 4 as in the 3 is replaced by the 4
in the case of my study the 3rd is not replaced just absent?
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Absent is the same. Absent or replaced, it's not heard.
If you are playing the Amsus4 at the 5th fret your first finger is across all the strings. So the C at the 5th, third string, is being pressed. But your third finger is on the D so the C is not heard.
Or a chord simply does not contain the C at all.
What is that book?
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okay I am wanting to see it has G flat maj I guess do to the A minor above : ( Originally Posted by pan60
all the chart have key signatures except the A minor and that coupled with the add 11 just stumped me.
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its a course on how to play jazz songs by Frank Vignola but like I say I wasnt using it to learn the song just to try and learn to read and help me understand theory. Originally Posted by ragman1
I feel I know a lot of these chord in his course but dont allways know what they are or better maybe how to name them just try learn the language.
thanks for the input!!!!
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By Frank Vignola? Well, he's okay but he's not really a theory guy. I suppose it's all right but be aware different people have different names for the same things!
Where are you from?
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I have been learning that
not sure hes the one that puts the charts together?
but in any case for the most part I ma learning the see the note on the staff and thats a big part of this for me.
as for the theory I havent really havnt got much for books so I am open to recommendations.
I feel like I have the very basics but still digging
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I'd like to sit down and talk to you!
See, what you should do is start with simple theory in, say, A minor and learn all that. The theory for other keys is exactly the same except for the sharps and flats.
But I've never seen a tune in seven flats. You don't need that at your stage of learning. From Am go to Dm, Gm, Cm, Fm, etc. Do the simple stuff first.
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Yeah people trying to get you playing might have some useful shortcuts that aren’t really put the way other people put them. Originally Posted by pan60
It’s not the best way to learn theory, necessarily, but also it’s useful to note that you don’t need tons of theory to get playing.
For theory, I loved Jazzology. My guitar teacher used it when I was fifteen. I still use it with students.
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I'm guessing that the author was thinking 'no key signature' and putting the accidentals in each voicing as needed, rather than thinking "Key of C vs Key of G" Sometimes the clearest way to write something in a textbook example is different from the clearest way to write a lead sheet
Chord names are an imperfect system at best, there's no absolute standard for when to use sus4 or 11. And since guitar has only 6 strings, you have to get used to finding smaller, playable voicings that fit in with the overall harmony rather than spelling it out completely
Best wishes foe everyone's music!
PK
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You’re getting a handle on it, pan60. Theory matters.
And as others have noted, the guitar can be ambivalent, even limited, which to me is a strength.
FWIW my ears gravitate toward the Am11 voicing with G C D on 4 3 2; I like the 2nd interval. But context matters, too.
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I learnt, not from theory books, but by playing tunes. I see Am11 and I find out what it is and how it works. Or I see G7sus and ditto. Likewise all the other chords in all the different keys.
Books give you knowledge, playing gives you experience.
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Both of which can be quite useful. Originally Posted by ragman1
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I feel now very ignorant I just cant see seven flats I Ab minor? Originally Posted by ragman1
I see Ab, Bb, Db, Eb, & Gb
and I can see the B as C flat but the F is natural so isnt it Ab min the dorian of Gb maj?
I can see calling the F natural in the context of a song but the reference is laying out a scale and then building the chords?
I jusy cant see what is written as seven flats with the F natural
thanks all!
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Ah, I see... he's no doubt thinking of Am as the relative minor key of C Major, thus the Am6, the I chord in A minor (and Am^7, from A melodic minor). Originally Posted by pan60
The seventh flat is Cb (B). It's in the key signature but then he writes the b3rd of Abm as B, so he has caused the confusion. Originally Posted by pan60
He's showing you the most common minor chord voicings, e.g., that A11 (A-E-G-D) is commonly used when there's a D in the melody, often progressing to D7 or D7b9, e.g., at the 7th fret: A-Eb-F#-C.
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I guess because the F is a natural I am seeing as the dorian of Gb maj as opposed to the relative minor of B.
if the F is natural isnt it only six flats?
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Sounds like you’re in just a bit over your head. Originally Posted by pan60
Not a huge deal. You’ll want to get into something that’s sequenced. No sense getting into modes before you’re confident on key signatures of major and minor.
No shame in not being totally solid on the key signature stuff.
Go through this stuff:
musictheory.net - Lessons
Thats been the high school music theory teachers bread and butter for like fifteen years. Tried and true. Start at the beginning and refresh. Check out the exercises in the other sections.
Theory might not seem totally relevant all the time but it’s like deciding you want to work at an Italian restaurant and trying to learn all the kitchen and food related Italian terms without learning all the language. Possible to do, and you want to be practical, but also learning the grammar and the conversational stuff will be helpful.
And trying to learn music theory by learning to play is like trying to learn Italian by working in an Italian restaurant. Eventually you probably will, but language classes are cool too.
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okay what is the basics I am missing I do understand what A minor is and far has being a minor I understand it could be the relative river of C or the third degree of F or the second degree of G. I am not trying to learn these chords chord I can play in my sleep and use. I am trying to understand why it is marked with the signature it is, because when I see the notes given to biuld these chords around the Ab minor I do not see B I see Gb
so I figure I am must be missing something?
maybe its a program that is used and assumes okay the minors are relative minors?
I dont know thats was why I ask.
just feel like I am missing something and learning these few chords is not it?
thanks all.
pan
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