practical definition of 'Latin'

[BWV]

whats is a practical, working defintion / guide to 'Latin' when used in a Jazz context? Is it just straight 8ths? I always think Bossa Nova, but in my limited knowledge of all the various Latin traditions, I know a little bit more about it. The term predates Bossa Nova, though - correct? Back when Latin would have meant Cuban-inspired

[matt.guitarteacher]

Maybe a little contentious with some, but there is a possible distinction to be made between playing "Latin" and playing "Latin jazz". This is a good older discussion. Reg is a working pro in the bay area - CA, USA. Christian and Destiny are also working pros, more interested in authentic "more Latin" interpretations:
Latin comping with a bass line

[BWV]

Thanks, this was the discussion I was looking for

[pcsanwald]

whats is a practical, working defintion / guide to 'Latin' when used in a Jazz context? Is it just straight 8ths? I always think Bossa Nova, but in my limited knowledge of all the various Latin traditions, I know a little bit more about it. The term predates Bossa Nova, though - correct? Back when Latin would have meant Cuban-inspired

The linked thread is great! This is something where in older generations, a vaguely "latin" feel in jazz was mostly used as a special effect: either some Bossa Nova or Samba type feel, typically, but with a 6/8 cuban feel being used less often but still sometimes. These days, people are a lot more specific about what sort of feel they want.

[jameslovestal]

The linked thread is great! This is something where in older generations, a vaguely "latin" feel in jazz was mostly used as a special effect: either some Bossa Nova or Samba type feel, typically, but with a 6/8 cuban feel being used less often but still sometimes. These days, people are a lot more specific about what sort of feel they want.

I guess it all comes down to how old is this "older generations": My other main past-time is American studio-era films and one of my interest was the introduction of Latin music in film. E.g. The 1933 film Flying Down to Rio. The basic story is about an American jazz band that goes down to Rio for a gig. At first the Americans musicians (headed by Fred Astaire) are snobs - they assume the Brazilian house band can't play "real music". Well the house band starts to play Carioca. The Americans are really impressed.

My understanding is that dancing was the primary driver behind the feel and the beats: I.e. the songs were categorized by non-musicians as how one would dance to them (verses play the song as a musician) ; E.g. Carioca is defined as a mixture of samba, maxixe, foxtrot and rhumba. Carioca became a jazz standard but as a new dancing style it didn't take off.

At least in very old films from the 30s and 40s most Latin numbers were done "correctly" and not vaguely since most were performed by actual Latin bands.

[christianm77]

The linked thread is great! This is something where in older generations, a vaguely "latin" feel in jazz was mostly used as a special effect: either some Bossa Nova or Samba type feel, typically, but with a 6/8 cuban feel being used less often but still sometimes. These days, people are a lot more specific about what sort of feel they want.

I actually think the Blue Note Latin feel is an entity unto itself. The original Blue Bossa for instance.

Trying to perfect an authentic Brazilian feel is not the right thing to do in this situations. You need get the straight 8s American jazz feel haha.

[christianm77]

In terms of its evolution; jazz swing itself represents a number of defined sub feels which is something that gets overlooked.

Jazz musicians today are often trained in ‘Latin’ feels much more. It’s common where I am for jazz players to spend some time playing samba percussion for instance. So people can get pretty specific.

The range of feels that became familiar to jazz musicians increased over time. These days Gnawa, Balkan odd time feels, Afrobeat, Dilla style ‘drunk’ hip hop and Drum and Bass feels are all very common.

[bako]

Historically, rhythms from Cuba and Brazil were early arrivals in jazz.

The diversity of rhythms of the people and cultures of South American and Caribbean nations is larger than any person could come to know and master in one lifetime. They largely reflect influence of indigenous peoples, people of African descent and various colonizing European countries. People from China, India and Japan and no doubt elsewhere have also come to live within certain countries.

How all this interacts with jazz in 2020 is an evolving phenomena.

[BWV]

Historically, rhythms from Cuba and Brazil were early arrivals in jazz.

The diversity of rhythms of the people and cultures of South American and Caribbean nations is larger than any person could come to know and master in one lifetime. They largely reflect influence of indigenous peoples, people of African descent and various colonizing European countries. People from China, India and Japan and no doubt elsewhere have also come to live within certain countries.

How all this interacts with jazz in 2020 is an evolving phenomena.

do any of the African / American traditions have a documented link to native American traditions? The sad reality was that indigenous people were largely wiped out in areas where slavery was prevalent. From what I understand almost nothing remains of any indigenous Caribbean culture, for example

[Marinero]

The music and rhythms derived from Latin America/Spain/Portugal or any other areas with a Spanish speaking population in relation to Jazz music.
Play live . . . Marinero

[pcsanwald]

I actually think the Blue Note Latin feel is an entity unto itself. The original Blue Bossa for instance.

Trying to perfect an authentic Brazilian feel is not the right thing to do in this situations. You need get the straight 8s American jazz feel haha.

A drummer I play with hates what he calls the "cannonball adderly shuffle bossa" feel. I personally love cannonball and like this feel, but his point is a good one: as soon as he used this phrase I knew *exactly* what he meant.

[neatomic]

perez prado...cuban born but moved to mexico and became the mambo king...well in advance of bossa...mambo was big in jazz world..so many tunes had mambo title attached to them

cheers

[christianm77]

A drummer I play with hates what he calls the "cannonball adderly shuffle bossa" feel. I personally love cannonball and like this feel, but his point is a good one: as soon as he used this phrase I knew *exactly* what he meant.

It is a very good way of triggering drummers who know a bit about Brazilian music and are all like 'actually, you'd NEVER do this on a Samba'. This is always fun.

The thing is - I love Cannonball Adderley and think his records sound great.

See also - Gypsy 'Bossa' what the fuck is that haha? (Cool feel though.)

[christianm77]

perez prado...cuban born but moved to mexico and became the mambo king...well in advance of bossa...mambo was big in jazz world..so many tunes had mambo title attached to them

cheers

Well you can go back to the 'Spanish Tinge' of Jelly Roll Morton.

It is often said New Orleans is the northernmost Caribbean city; in the 19th century close trading links with Havana etc. You can obviously see the cross over between the clave rhythms of Cuba and the 6/8 West African sensibility of the blues, all mixed up with the European march band tradition.

Caribbean music is a separate strain. Aside from Cuba you also have the Calypso feel, Soca, and so on.

Billy Hart talks about 'island feels' and jazz drummers who have the Cascara in the ride cymbal beat. https://ethaniverson.com/interviews/...th-billy-hart/ (amazing interview BTW, I love drummers, so much more knowledgeable about the deep history of the music than most other instrumentalists; they are the lore-masters.)

The more I learn about swing, the more I realise it too is to some large extent a 'latin' feel. As is rock and roll; huge debt to Cuban and NOLA rhythms.

[pcsanwald]

Billy Hart talks about 'island feels' and jazz drummers who have the Cascara in the ride cymbal beat. https://ethaniverson.com/interviews/...th-billy-hart/ (amazing interview BTW, I love drummers, so much more knowledgeable about the deep history of the music than most other instrumentalists; they are the lore-masters.)

The more I learn about swing, the more I realise it too is to some large extent a 'latin' feel. As is rock and roll; huge debt to Cuban and NOLA rhythms.

The true master of explaining swing this way is Danilo Perez. I played bass on a masterclass he gave and I wish I had recorded his explanation/demo of 3:4 and 4:3 and clave and how that leads to the swing feel. it's so wonderful, he has everyone clapping and stomping their feet.

[ccroft]

Where's Bonsritmos when we need him? :)

He's posted pages on all this. Sometimes hard to wade through, but there's something there in his older posts. Especially RE Brazil, Caribbean and crossover to swing. He also uses a bunch of fun terms like Bata, Bravum, Ketu Candoble and so on. His writing can be mystifying, but his clips demonstrate it quite well.

Hasn't been around for a while. Hope he's OK.

[christianm77]

Where's Bonsritmos when we need him?

He's posted pages on all this. Sometimes hard to wade through, but there's something there in his older posts. Especially RE Brazil, Caribbean and crossover to swing. He also uses a bunch of fun terms like Bata, Bravum, Ketu Candoble and so on. His writing can be mystifying, but his clips demonstrate it quite well.

Hasn't been around for a while. Hope he's OK.

Yes. If I have it right, BTW, the argument here is that these rhythms share a common ancestor (Yoruba rhythms) rather than a direct influence. I think some people didn't quite get this...

Anyway, here's the videos all together, they are great...