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i've heard some guitarists playing great comping with "black orpheus" with a bass line ! it had a vibe between this two videos:
Can you guys help me know the name of that , if it has a name , and also point me to a lesson , books , records to learn that kind of comping ! it works so great over bossa standards such as "how unsensitive " "recado bossa etc ..
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10-31-2016 09:19 PM
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The second example is what gets called Gypsy Bossa, or Gypsy Rhumba.
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João Gilberto. Forever.
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Yes Joao is the greatest.
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I think it was Miles Davis who said he could happily listen to Joao Gilberto singing the telephone directory all day long.
Originally Posted by christianm77
(it probably sounds very cool and romantic in Portuguese!)
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So generally... when comping in Latin (afro/cuban) or Brazilian style, it's all about what Clave or rhythmic feel your creating. The clave is just the pulse and an accent pattern. Generally two bar phrase, but one bar clave is also used all the time. There are also standard Montunos, melodic figures that imply the clave and harmony for the styles.
Put a little time into understanding the basic patterns and terms and how parts are organized.... When comping your usually combining the bass and harmony (chords) into one part... the result is what your after. The trick is to keep the accent pattern implied.
We as jazz players generally don't really get that authentic as far as the traditional styles, but that is the point, we're not trying to play the original, we're playing Jazz tunes or latin and brazilian tunes in a jazz style.
But you do need to understand and be able to perform a style before using that style to interact with Jazz etc...
It's not that hard.... just get the rhythms, (pulse and accents), together. There all over the internet.
While Nelson Faria's The Brazilian Guitar Book and Antonio Adolfo"s Brazilian Music Workshop both cover the performance aspect etc... neither really get into the Clave thing. Rebeca Mauleon's Salsa Guidebook for Piano & Ensemble has more details... here's an online sight with some basics...
https://www.midwestclinic.org/user_files_1/pdfs/clinicianmaterials/2005/victor_lopez.pdf
Last edited by Reg; 11-02-2016 at 10:16 AM.
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OK, deep breath. Here we go. Apologies for epicness of the postation.
Reg is right about US style jazz being a bit vague about 'latin' stuff. In some ways it can be a bit stylistically wrong to get too authentic when playing say a lounge version of Ipanema or comping on Blue Bossa, say. But, it is also the case that there's a lot of depth to explore if you want.
Many musicians with actual knowledge of Latin American music have contempt for the term 'latin jazz.' So many different feels and cultures getting merged into a sort of soup of vaguely Brazilian and Afro-Cuban rhythms. 'Generic latin' has become a bit of a joke among the musicians I know, but it is the case that it is a feel, and you can hear it on quite a few classic jazz recordings!
Some pointers on Brazilian stuff - well specifically stuff from Rio, Samba and Bossa it's descendant, the best known feels to jazz players. Much second hand from the great percussionist Joao Bosco de Oliviera, some of which I have not yet seen in a book. Bosco is a legend in music education in the UK, it's a shame for us he is back in Brazil!
- Samba and Bossa are in 2/4 not 4/4
- Bossa guitar is a reduction of the samba bateria (percussion ensemble) - the thumb plays the part of the surdo (bass drum) and the fingers play the part of other instruments - tamborim (small drum), caixa (snare drum), agogo (bells) and so on.
- Originally in the bateria there was only 1st Surdos (bass drum) that played on beat 2. Later on in the '50s they added Surdo 2 on beat 1, but this had a higher pitch.
For this reason on guitar we play always a lower or equal bass on beat 2, but never a higher bass. So you can play the E string twice, or the A string followed be E on beat 2, but never the other way around.
-Also for this reason, if you want to get a more authentic feeling, heavily accent beat 2.
- The clave does not really exist as a concept in Brazilian music, but there is an analagous concept that lines up. Often in Brazilian music there are two bar rhythms. Where you have a two bar pattern, start with the more syncopated bar first as a general principle. (Gilberto often plays one bar patterns though)
As in Cuban music, Brazilian rhythms can be crossed and incorrect, which will subtly mess up the groove. And outside of Brazil they often get it backwards, starting with the less syncopated bar.
(I was embarrassed to discover after classes with Bosco all the sambas I had written before were backwards. I must make amends at some point. ;-))
- True samba and bossa swings - it's not straight. This is a subtle feeling to get right (many jazz 'latin' feels don't bother) but if you are interested in the authentic swing, Gilberto is an excellent starting point.
The swing in samba kind of makes the music feel like it's speeding up all the time. Here for more info... This is how it sounds:
- As Reg says the US jazz/Blue Note 'Bossa' is something rather different to actual Bossa. The rhythms are the same in terms of patterns but the expression is different. Blue Bossa, for instance is its own kind of groove.
I am hardly an expert on this. I have done a tiny bit of playing in a bateria, which helps, as does of course listening to lots of Brazilian music, not just Bossa, but as much different stuff from all over. Of course all the manifestations of Rio Samba are important to the evolution of Bossa Nova, but Choro is an important influence as well.
I know much less still about Afro-Cuban music.
Re: Clave, I believe this concept has relevance to American swing rhythms too, through New Orleans. I did a video innit:
Drummers often talk about the Cascara rhythm in the ride cymbal.
It's all connected. Lot of information here, but hope it's of some interest.Last edited by christianm77; 11-02-2016 at 08:54 PM.
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I agree that playing a samba rythm implies a lower bass tone and accenting on beat 2, but not that much for bossa nova which isn't played on a surdo rythm background.
Just think of playing that way on insensitive, gentle rain, black orpheus and you immediately feel that this doesn't really fit the style of these songs.
Also note and accent tend to fall a bit earlier than on beat 2, somehow a quarter note before, which helps propelling the music forward
When playing bossa nova, i try to vary the rythmic pattern, bass note choice and placement, else I feel it sounds repetitive and boring (Carlos Arana emphasizes variation requirements in his books). Listen to Joao Gilberto and you will perceive these kinds of subtleties in his guitar playing
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Yeah I think you are right re: slower bossa stuff, it is definitely cooled down from true samba. Gilberto is relatively even... Originally Posted by mhch
I still perceive a subtle accent on the second beat though... It's probably worth practicing accenting the 2 heavily and then bringing it back.
If not the actual heaviness of the note, there is something about the way the note is attacked which creates that Surdo feel. Soft, but fat and warm. The 1st beat note seems a little shorter, note on beat 2 a little longer.
This album is the Bossa accompaniment bible as far as I am concerned... There's a few other grooves as well... TBH I find Gilberto absolutely mesmerising with very simple patterns that don't vary much, listen to track 1.
Gilberto as far as I can hear will tend to repeat a low note rather than alternate high low on bass. Also he isn't overly concerned whether the bass note is the root of the chord or not.
For full band, but I love this feel which has an definite accent on 2. Also notice that the bass as you say frequently pushes/syncopates that beat which is another common variation:
Also, not sure if I mentioned it, but another point when changing chords, make sure you change on the anticipation. So if you play a Dm7 G7 for a bar each and you have a chord on the 16th note before the G7 bar (8th not in 4/4), put the G7 chord on it.
The Bossa Nova guitar book covers these things in detail, but IIRC doesn't really discuss the feel.Last edited by christianm77; 11-03-2016 at 05:48 AM.
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For me, the 'elephant in the room' is not 'authenticity' but 'amplification'.
For example, the sound engineering on João's 'white album' is legendary, and the results (in my view) far superior to those on 'The Best of Two Worlds'.
However, 'old-school' isn't the only way; I still prefer a simple (condensor) mic for bossa nova, but I no longer dismiss other options for amplifying acoustic guitar.
What I might dismiss as 'over-processed' does seem to sound superior to 'non-jazz' audiences; I think it's always worth remembering that, when the 1958 album Chega de saudade (by the now eighty-five-year-old João Gilberto) first appeared, the music was described as ‘samba canção’.
The choice is mostly aesthetic, but some technical knowledge and skill is essential when playing this music live and at high volumes. Because a touch of today's technology can add to the music.
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I find it hard to get that soft bass string sound that Joao has.... Originally Posted by destinytot
But didn't Joao insist on playing acoustic (without amplification)? At least at one point?Last edited by christianm77; 11-03-2016 at 08:22 AM.
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Joao's patterns on Aguas de Março are a bit more "complex" (poor wording) than the one usually described as the typical bossa pattern. When listening carefully his patterns vary, although their extra "complexity" makes it harder to notice. Originally Posted by christianm77
In one of his books, Carlos Arana enumerates all the possible patterns (21 total from memory ?) one can play on a given bar, a lot more than those 2 or 4 of the often described bossa patterns.
Anticipation is important to the feel
on beat 2 : anticipated bass note, or an anticipated subtle dead bass note, sort of a subtle way of accenting beat 2
on beat 1 : anticipated chord change, which no one indeed mentionned before you did.
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Those books are good then? Never checked them out... Does he analyse Aguas in detail? It's one of my favourite songs, but an elusive one for non Portuguese speaker (me). Originally Posted by mhch
Obviously with Gilberto and these subtle variations, I wonder how conscious they are. What is just as remarkable to me as his guitar playing is the way his singing pushes and pulls against the pattern with that sublime swing.
One source of Bossa chords that is fantastic but rather hard to get hold of us the Bossa Nova Songbook by Almir Chediak. The shapes he gives for obvious jazz bossa standards like Desafinado and Black Orpheus are an eye opener! Certainly very different to the real book changes and stock jazz guitar grips, but they sound right - if not always the original composer's changes, certainly very stylish and authentic sounding ones. Don't expect many ii-V's haha.
It has chord diagrams/songbook format and lead sheet. It's my primary source for changes on these tunes other than my ears.
Hard to get physical copies here in the UK, at least. The books are in Portugeuse too, IIRC, not that that is a huge issue.
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No detailed analysis of Aguas de Março in Arana's books.
I doubt the subtle variations in Joao's playing are conscious. Before his early records appeared to the world, he worked like crazy for a couple of years, days and nights, never leaving his place, exploring new ways to play ( João Gilberto :: The Man Who Invented Bossa Nova ) and to slow down or accelerate his singing against the rythmic pattern (which very few if any are able to imitate). For sure after such an ordeal, he became able to play "inconsciously"
Yes Chediak's books are invaluable as a reference, sort of a RealBook of Brazilian music. Among them: Dicionario de accordes cifrados, in portuguese, in which he analyses a number of songs (but not Aguas de Março). Many of his books are available from Amazon ( Amazon.com: Almir Chediak: Books ). Some of his books are also available from scribd
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Yes he did ... One or twice, he even stopped in the middle of a song, in front of the audience at a very famous concert place, telling "one more noise or a chat, and I leave" .... Originally Posted by christianm77
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I find that unpolished strings and a firm-but-smooth thumb callous help. Originally Posted by christianm77
Bosco may have shared some of his own second-hand stories about João Gilberto's eccentricities, but this article is interesting regarding the topic of João's views on 'sound'.
João appears to have (allegedly) singled out 'unnecessary reverb' in his condemnation of mastering which, according to the quoted statement from his lawyer, contains sound effects that “did not pertain to the original recordings, banalizing the work of a great artist.”
João Gilberto's sound is almost archetypal - but it's also 'set'.
João's probably never heard of Neunaber - good thing, too - but (thankfully) some bossa nova artists
do make very effective and judicious use of their products.
I love having João's sound as a constant reference, but it doesn't help with entertaining - 'taming' - noisy, indifferent, unsympathetic (and perhaps hostile) audiences here and now. And that's where 'doing what you love' can take you; those of us that sing need to learn to prevail.
I'm lucky - and very thankful - to perform with an extremely confident and capable singer who can pull her own weight, and who keeps me in line. Just the songs, live - no 'soloing' per se (except a few prepared chordal passages) - and lots of audience participation (my idea of group therapy).
And this is my 'go-to' reference recording for the entertainment values of bossa nova:
Last edited by destinytot; 11-03-2016 at 09:21 AM. Reason: typo
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No he didn't - he was discussing Rio samba and I also did a little Choro with him, and as far as he's concerned they are all first hand. Originally Posted by destinytot
The stuff specifically regarding guitar comes from elsewhere or my own perceptions - just to be clear. Don't want to give a false impression.
Mike, you probably don't remember but attending your gig at the Komedia back in the '90s was the first time I had heard Bossa done properly.but this article is interesting regarding the topic of João's views on 'sound'.
João appears to have (allegedly) singled out 'unnecessary reverb' in his condemnation of mastering which, according to the quoted statement from his lawyer, contains sound effects that “did not pertain to the original recordings, banalizing the work of a great artist.”
João Gilberto's sound is almost archetypal - but it's also 'set'.
João's probably never heard of Neunaber - good thing, too - but (thankfully) some bossa nova artists make very effective and judicious use of their products.
I love having João's sound as a constant reference, but it doesn't help with entertaining - 'taming' - noisy, indifferent, unsympathetic (and perhaps hostile) audience. And that's where 'doing what you love' can take you; those of us that sing need to learn to prevail.
I'm lucky - and very thankful - to perform with an extremely confident and capable singer who can pull her own weight, and who keeps me in line. Just the songs, live - no 'soloing' per se (except a few prepared chordal passages) - and lots of audience participation (my idea of group therapy).
And this is my 'go-to' reference recording for the entertainment values of bossa nova:
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Suggests there was some serious conscious work put into developing this rhythmic language at some point. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. Originally Posted by mhch
Even singing a Bossa melody against a simple guitar pattern can be challenging enough at first. Good exercise for anyone...Last edited by christianm77; 11-03-2016 at 09:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Indeed.
That reminds me Paul McCartney singing while playing some of his bass lines, everything perfectly placed rythmically. A lot of practice is implied ...
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It's not that complicated... I believe the op was talking about small ensembles or even solo guitar.
It's the feel... not how the different parts and accents are distributed, there are lots of choices.
Different Latin and Brazilian styles have different accent patterns which create the style.
And again... generally we're performing in a jazz style, not salsa and samba dance gigs. Their different.
I'll try and find my recording BS and post some tunes.
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Bosco had second-hand stories - always told with affection - from people who had recorded with Joõo. But they weren't about the music. Originally Posted by christianm77
They were stories about his personality; specifically about how his love of certain Brazilian food, in combination with his meticulous attention to very precise details, (allegedly) became almost unbearable for the housekeeper who cooked for him - and also for the poor passengers who (allegedly) accompanied him when he insisted on driving (badly) to a particular place for a particular kind of fish.
Love those stories, and I think I'll always admire João's aloofness. But I like to think saudade explains it best - and I believe it allows João to drown what might otherwise be terror and despair in Virtue.
Not musical, but part of why I chose to imitate João; his music speaks to me on a visceral level.
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Bert Ligon has a good bit of material in his theory book illustrating the larger underlying rhythms which are implied by multiple notated examples off more intricate rhythms. The emphasis is on hearing larger patterns, and creating grooves and rhythms from them. Sounds kind of like what you're getting at? Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Thanks, Christian. I think Ife Tolentino was already doing it as well as it can be done.
Last edited by destinytot; 11-03-2016 at 11:39 AM. Reason: typo
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So Destinytot... I'm just trying to help the conversation keep going, Latin and Brazillian Jazz. I always dig your playing, singing and feels etc... I believe I've always said so. That's my disclaimer... you should know I love ya man....
OK ... when I watch your vids... you take lots of liberties with everything, right. Melodies, harmony, rhythm, articulations and even phrasing. Your time even floats... right. So my point is... none of that really matters... when you perform, your conveying a feel and a complete product... the music etc... The music is alive and we as the audience feel that... that's part of what we like, (forget about amateur musicians, their still searching).
Again getting back to the style of guitar comping with changes, bass line and melody or lead line, there are many approaches and ways to perform a tune or style of music and still convey the feel of what that style is.
When you performing Dance music... you lose some of those liberties. And when you try and perform in the original folkish style of years ago... again the product usually doesn't quite work, unless you've put in the time to understand and feel etc...
or you can sight read well .
And then generally the audience is limited, if there is even an audience.
moving on...
I gig and perform lots of latin and brazilian music, solo, small ensembles and small big bands... I gig with lots of percussionists, both cuban and brazilian.... latin music always has a clave... so does brazilian. If you don't hear or feel it... the music doesn't work, well it works, but not very well.
Latin music, (afro-cuban) is about the clave, a clave is just a rhythmic cell that is sub-divided into two parts. Years ago in 2/4, but standard notation practice has been 4/4 for years, same with Brazilian, just not as long.
We all need to be percussionist or drummers, a Montuno is just the transformation of harmony becoming rhythm. When guitarist comp in the style that the OP was talking about.... performing in the style of....latin or brazilian music, that's what's going on, the guitar is becoming a rhythmic instrument, using bass notes and chords or melodic lines, (montunos) to accompany vocal or instrumental melodies.... and as jazz players, improv.
How we choose to arrange the rhythmic, harmonic and melodic parts is our choice...
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