December 2016 - I Can't Get Started

[Mick-7]

Guy - When I saw your chart I thought Oh. However, I tried it and it's okay. Personally, I like the way it's discordant in those bars. There are versions that remove that feeling but I'm not sure, I think you can risk it, it gives it some character. You can always change it later, of course.

Well sure, if you strum the Db7 before playing the C-E-G eighth notes as you did, try harmonizing the notes with it and see how it sounds.

Seems someone was trying to be clever by using the b5 sub for the V7 chord, but this is not the place for that.

[GuyBoden]

You have a few incorrect chord changes, they do not match the melody. For example, in bar 4 where you have Db7, the melody notes are C-E-G, should be a Dm7 or G7sus there.

Here are Ralph Patt's vanilla changes:

I CAN'T GET STARTED WITH YOU - Key of C - 4/4

[: C Am7 | Dm7 G7 | E7 Am7 | D7 G7 |

1.__________________________
| C Am7 | Dm7 G7 | C | Dm7 G7 :]
2.___________________________
| C Bb7 | C | Em7 A7 | Em7 A7 |

| D | D | Dm7 G7 | Dm7 G7 | C A7 | D7 G7 ||
| C Am7 | Dm7 G7 | E7 Am7 | D7 G7 | C A7 | Dm7 G7 | C | C |

Guy-

When I saw your chart I thought Oh. However, I tried it and it's okay. Personally, I like the way it's discordant in those bars. There are versions that remove that feeling but I'm not sure, I think you can risk it, it gives it some character. You can always change it later, of course.

Well sure, if you strum the Db7 before playing the C-E-G eighth notes as you did, try harmonizing the notes with it and see how it sounds.

Seems someone was trying to be clever by using the b5 sub for the V7 chord, but this is not the place for that.

Many thanks, I'm just starting learning to play the tune/chords, so I appreciate your comments.
My simple changes, were ok, but a bit too complex for my improvising ability.

I'll give Ralph Patt's basic chords a try. Thanks.

[ragman1]

My simple changes, were ok, but a bit too complex for my improvising ability.

So it's not the chords but rather your ability to improvise over them, is that it? Well, now's the time to learn, isn't it?

What makes you think it's hard? If you can play over E7 why don't you just move it down to Eb7, D7 and Db7?

That's the beauty of the guitar, it's all moveable.

[djg]

Many thanks, I'm just starting learning to play the tune/chords, so I appreciate your comments.
My simple changes, were ok, but a bit too complex for my improvising ability.

I'll give Ralph Patt's basic chords a try. Thanks.

Db7 is perfectly fine. It's what pretty much everyone plays, following dizzys version from the 40s. the clash with the maj triad pick-up is a non issue.

[GuyBoden]

So it's not the chords but rather your ability to improvise over them, is that it? Well, now's the time to learn, isn't it?

What makes you think it's hard? If you can play over E7 why don't you just move it down to Eb7, D7 and Db7?

That's the beauty of the guitar, it's all moveable.

Yes, I can play simple Dom lines over each descending chromatic chords, but it sounds awful. I'm just a hobby Jazz guitar player, who plays a few Jazz tunes.

Below, chords and melody from the 557 Fake book.
https://www.stat.rice.edu/~dobelman/...zStandards.pdf

[ragman1]

I was going to post that before but it looked a bit tricky to me, four chords in one bar. Are considering trying it? I thought you were going to do the simple one!

[GuyBoden]

I was going to post that before but it looked a bit tricky to me, four chords in one bar. Are considering trying it? I thought you were going to do the simple one!

No, I'm using the Ralph Patt simple version. I usually initially start with an easy version of a Jazz Standard, but I forgot to look at the Ralph Patt simple versions.

Thanks Mick-7, for mentioning the Ralph Patt simple version

[Mick-7]

I've attached what is reputed to be the original sheet music, the song has a very long introduction.

The top line of chord changes on the chart are the original changes, the bottom line (underneath it) are common jazz chord substitutions. In the bar with the Db7 we talked about, Gershwin has D7 (D13) for the entire measure.

[GuyBoden]

I've attached what is reputed to be the original sheet music, the song has a very long introduction.

The top line of chord changes on the chart are the original changes, the bottom line (underneath it) are common jazz chord substitutions. In the bar with the Db7 we talked about, Gershwin has D7 (D13) for the entire measure.

Currently, I'm using these basic chords:



Maybe, I'll change the F7 for a Bb7, for variety.

Any more simple ideas?

Thanks Guy.

[djg]

Currently, I'm using these basic chords:

Maybe, I'll change the F7 for a Bb7, for variety.

Any more simple ideas?

Thanks Guy.

i would keep the dizzy chords at bar 3 and 4. they are an ideal training ground for your licks. if you think Bm Bbm Am Abm, then you get two beats ballad tempo or a full bar in medium up double time tempo for each minor chord. thats plenty of space to use. i am a fan of practicing one move. if you look at the attached pdf you see that one lick covers all situations. can you play that lick over the whole tune?

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/atta...ne-up-1625-pdf

[ragman1]

Maybe, I'll change the F7 for a Bb7, for variety.

The usual chord there is Bb7, at least in most versions. Presumably you mean you might change it to F7 for variety

[GuyBoden]

The usual chord there is Bb7, at least in most versions. Presumably you mean you might change it to F7 for variety

Yes, I think F7 and Bb7 both sound ok.

But, I've notated F7.

[ragman1]

Other things:

You should change the Am7 to an A7 in the last line because of the C# in the melody.

The last C chord of each section should really be C6, sounds more solid and stable than CM7. For this sort of tune, anyway.

[GuyBoden]

Other things:

You should change the Am7 to an A7 in the last line because of the C# in the melody.

The last C chord of each section should really be C6, sounds more solid and stable than CM7. For this sort of tune, anyway.

Good spot, Am7 to A7. I missed that. Thanks

The dangers of copy+paste

[ragman1]

Look, re. the dreaded E7/Eb7 - D7/Db7, do you realise it's just a sub for C - G7? Look at the melody over those chords on a lead sheet, not an altered note in sight.

Really, the whole of the A section is that, repeating variations on C - G7 using subs. That chromatic line is just another way of getting back to C. You don't have to outline all the chords as written.

[GuyBoden]

Look, re. the dreaded E7/Eb7 - D7/Db7, do you realise it's just a sub for C - G7? Look at the melody over those chords on a lead sheet, not an altered note in sight.

Really, the whole of the A section is that, repeating variations on C - G7 using subs. That chromatic line is just another way of getting back to C. You don't have to outline all the chords as written.

Yes, I know the theory behind those tri-tone sub descending dom lines.

Theory is easy, it's playing that's difficult.

[Mick-7]

Look, re. the dreaded E7/Eb7 - D7/Db7, do you realise it's just a sub for C - G7? Look at the melody over those chords on a lead sheet, not an altered note in sight.

Really, the whole of the A section is that, repeating variations on C - G7 using subs. That chromatic line is just another way of getting back to C. You don't have to outline all the chords as written.

The song was written in 1935, wasn't a lot of harmonic complexity back then. The question is, how do you want to play it: as a swing tune like the original or as a be-bop tune? Vocalists generally follow Gershwin, not Gillespie.

Lester Young with Barney Kessel = musical bliss (the piano player ain't bad too )

[GuyBoden]

The song was written in 1935, wasn't a lot of harmonic complexity back then. The question is, how do you want to play it: as a swing tune like the original or as a be-bop tune? Vocalists generally follow Gershwin, not Gillespie.

Lester Young with Barney Kessel = musical bliss (the piano player ain't bad too )

Thanks, I'm playing with a slow swing feel ballad, I've noticed that the original Gershwin chords you posted actually fit the melody, where other versions sometimes don't.

So, I'm trying to start with using a simple version, where the chords actually match the melody. (There are a lots of notated versions.)

I've had the 'Lester Young with the Oscar Peterson' cd for over 20 years, it's my fav version.

[ragman1]

I thought it was about time I put in a version of this. Apparently I haven't so far.

[GuyBoden]

I thought it was about time I put in a version of this. Apparently I haven't so far.

I've got to say that it doesn't sound like Jazz, but it's a nice pleasant sound.

[ragman1]

You're obsessed with things 'having to sound like jazz'. I don't know what that means. It's just music, that's all, and it's a 1936 jazz tune. Good enough for me.

[Mick-7]

You're obsessed with things 'having to sound like jazz'. I don't know what that means.

I think he's referring to your phrasing.

[GuyBoden]

I think he's referring to your phrasing.

Yes, I prefer something that sounds more like Jazz, example this:

[ragman1]

Yes, I thought that was great fun too, wonderfully played. Shame they cut the guitar off.

But the art of criticism goes a little beyond 'I only like what I like'. Any fool can say that :-)

[ragman1]

There's an awful lot of good stuff on that site, by the way. Good find!

North Wales Jazz - YouTube