December 2016 - I Can't Get Started

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by joaopaz

just eight notes or less

Well, you exceeded your quota then! That's a joke :-)

What was wrong with that? You're very tentative but you obviously know what you're doing. A bit more familiarity etc...

Btw, were you playing solely by ear or did you already know the chord sequence? It didn't look like you were reading them.

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by KirkP

Oscar Peterson Quartet backing up Lester Young. Barney Kessel's voicings are great.

Kirk, that's the second vid that's come up unavailable. How are you posting them? Did you mean this version?

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 03:42 PM

Christian -

I've just listened to Dizzy Gillespie - just this one, not all the way through. At about 0.43 they play E7-Eb7-D7-Db7. No question.

Oh god! Make it go away!!

joaopaz · 12-02-2016, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Well, you exceeded your quota then! That's a joke :-)

What was wrong with that? You're very tentative but you obviously know what you're doing. A bit more familiarity etc...

Btw, were you playing solely by ear or did you already know the chord sequence? It didn't look like you were reading them.

no, I'm not reading... actually (just checked) you can see the Real Book behind me in the music stand!
I just wanted to do a first take before diving into the changes and analysis.
(I feel a bit embarrassed with that video already! ... but as Wayne Shorter says jazz means "I dare you"

)

**KirkP** · 12-02-2016, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Kirk, that's the second vid that's come up unavailable. How are you posting them? Did you mean this version?

That's the same track. I wonder if we have a problem with youtube's international licensing. What country are you in?

**ragman1** · 12-02-2016, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by KirkP

That's the same track. I wonder if we have a problem with youtube's international licensing. What country are you in?

UK. I think it's a US/UK thing.

**KirkP** · 12-02-2016, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Christian -

I've just listened to Dizzy Gillespie - just this one, not all the way through. At about 0.43 they play E7-Eb7-D7-Db7. No question.

Oh god! Make it go away!!

Tunes with endless cycles of 6-2-5-1 can get really boring. Tritone subs give you that downward chromatic cycle which provides some relief from that merry-go-round. Dizzy does it one way and Barney another. I think they're all good. The trick is to be familiar with them all and be able to hear them on the bandstand so you can adapt to your bandmate's choices in real time.
That's another reason I try to first learn a tune in its vanilla form. The vanilla changes are sort of a "lowest common denominator" between all the reharmonized versions, so if you know the vanilla version and understand how subs work you can quickly figure out what your bandmates are playing. At least that's how I think it should work -- I have a long way to go to get there, but I've seen progress since I started approaching tunes that way.

**Vladan** · 12-02-2016, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Quite. That's why I just got on with it!

(And may I repeat the Joe Pass version: |Bm7b5 E7#5#9| Am7 Eb7|D11 Db13|... !)

Interesting, the first 4 bars lead me to play an E A G powerchord riff, but when I manage to resist the urge bars 3 and 4 come out as
... Bm7b5 E7+| Am7 B+| ...

... And B+ is quite the same as Eb+, which is on the line with Joe's Eb7, which IMO comes from modulating that Am(7) to A(7(9)) ...

Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

**KirkP** · 12-02-2016, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

That's a cool site. In Bunny's chart note that F|M7 apparently means F#min7. It's an odd notation that threw me at first. Of course it also must be transposed a whole step down to be in concert key.

**grahambop** · 12-03-2016, 05:56 AM

So far I have found the changes in the iReal app to be a pretty good compromise out of the alternatives, for most tunes. I have got the old Real Books, the new Hal Leonard real books, and the 'PocketChanges' book, and I usually end up going back to the iReal after checking all of them.

**christianm77** · 12-03-2016, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Well, that's why I'm saying it might not matter that much :-)

Reharms - well depends on where you are coming from really. For example, you might choose a set of changes that are much more chromatic or modal, but fit the melody - sort of melody down.

Or you might be using a reharm that goes from the chords out, with the melody possibly changed - such as Coltrane's Body and Soul.

In these two cases, you would normally expect a chart, but in fact you have quite a lot of freedom to do stuff like this if you are playing with just bass and no piano. In fact if the horn player was just playing the melody pretty straight you could play it with them... But I think you'd have to know them quite well haha.

Or you might be (as I think is most common) taking the vanilla changes and building stuff on that

Now a thought about the vanilla changes - the vanilla blowing changes are not always the same as the original. Often with the original sheet music changes there are details that get simplified or abstracted in favour of something more streamlined for blowing. That's what I think we are hearing with the Bunny Berrigan changes - the early slightly more complex version (based on an arrangement for big band) in contrast to the simpler changes on some of the later recordings, or the be-boppy ii-V's that Clifford uses.

This happened a lot, BTW - quite a few jazz blowing vehicles like Softly and Alone Together originally had more complex changes than the one's we use now.

Er, isn't that what's led to all this confusion??!

To me the more you know and the more you can hear the less confusion there is. Instead of being in a situation playing wiht a new rhythm section and thinking 'why do my chords sound awful' you can hear that they are using Bleeding Gum Murphy's changes from 1952 and change it up accordingly. Or be a dick and insist they are playing the wrong changes.

As a player I tend to see the melody as all important in the head, keep my chords as vanilla as possible when comping - unless I can hear clearly the harmony that soloist is playing, and for my own solos, do what I like.

Which one? There are 101 versions on YouTube! The first two are doing E7 Am Dm G9 or something like that. Nothing very clever.

I think that's probably what I would go for as a default. I called this tune on a gig last night (with a really traddy Sousa player) and the chromatic ii-V's didn't fit, so I went with that and it sounded good.

Anyway, in a sense of clearing through the thicket of recordings, the jazzstandards.com listings are pretty helpful:
Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals (I Can't Get Started (with You))

Eh? Mine all start from the chorus.

From bar 1 of the chorus? So Joe's harmony of the tune starts on the m7b5? Probably easiest if I just listen to the track.

No, I did! I did that first vid before I even looked at any of this. When I saw E7-Am-D7-G7 I thought 'Ah, Bm-Am so I put in the Bbm and it became Bm-Bbm-Am-Ab7-G7. Honest :-) (But I didn't use it - too many chords at that speed).

That sounds like a legit claim to me.

Anyway, can't hang around chatting with you all day. Some of us have got lush ballads to work out!

**christianm77** · 12-03-2016, 08:25 AM

OK guys, here's a prelim bash at a solo version. I don't recapitulate the tune at the end on this one, but I've found some what I think are nice little reharm things. I tried to get a bit clever on the improv bit, which is always a mistake.. Ah well work in progress (that'll be on my gravestone)

More importantly, this is a recording of the ES175 I bought from Craig (55bar) through my Princeton Reverb...

Dropbox - I Can't Get Started final.m4a

**ragman1** · 12-03-2016, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

taking the vanilla changes and building stuff on that

Yes, at first glance that seems a nice option. I can see issues with it though, as you say.

the more you know and the more you can hear the less confusion there is

Sure, but you've really got to know your stuff to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I mean, a lot of folks just want to know what the chords are and throwing ten different versions in the air looks highly confusing. Even I find myself asking 'Are these good changes or their reharm of them?'. And it can be very confusing, let's be honest!

Going back to our current tune, it seems the basic idea is E7 Am D7 G7 but a little research shows many, many players are doing the Bm Bbm chromatic thing. That must be terribly confusing for certain people, and I don't exclude myself. I mean, we're already into 2 pages on this right here!

So Joe's harmony of the tune starts on the m7b5?

His harmony of the chorus, yes. He does an intro too. It's the Virtuoso 4 version.

(Your dropbox thing swings along nicely at the end

)

**ragman1** · 12-03-2016, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

My goal with a reharm is to let the melody remain unchanged, but still have a progression that is vaguely logical.

You did what I did on my initial effort, basically put it into the relative minor. Seems to work most of the time anyway and it opens up improv ideas.

I did that with my Summertime rehash too, I believe.

**mr. beaumont** · 12-03-2016, 05:16 PM

I think I'm hearing some real growth, ragman. Fun to hear multiple takes as you figure out what this song will be for you.

Christian, sounded great too.

I think I'll do multiplease vids for this. Here's my first "sit down" with the tune today...trying a few impractical Johnny Smith isms.

So far, my ears like B half diminished to kick off bar 3 and a D#dim to end bar 4. We'll see where this goes over the next few days.

**destinytot** · 12-03-2016, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think I'm hearing some real growth, ragman. Fun to hear multiple takes as you figure out what this song will be for you.

Christian, sounded great too.

I think I'll do multiplease vids for this. Here's my first "sit down" with the tune today...trying a few impractical Johnny Smith isms.

So far, my ears like B half diminished to kick off bar 3 and a D#dim to end bar 4. We'll see where this goes over the next few days.

(Big smile. Applause.)

**matt.guitarteacher** · 12-03-2016, 08:43 PM

Great to hear everyone's versions. A lot of solo takes this month. Here's one from me. Very straight ahead phone-video version, complete with bumble bee noise. Sorry. Not the first take, but not the 4th. Left a clam in to keep it "real". :-)

**dogletnoir** · 12-04-2016, 02:41 PM

Here's a version i recorded on the occasion of Les Paul's 100 birthday last year:

Using a Limited Edition Les Paul Custom, and trying for just a little bit of the way he played the tune
(in his later years, anyhow).

**wizard3739** · 12-06-2016, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think I'm hearing some real growth, ragman. Fun to hear multiple takes as you figure out what this song will be for you.

Christian, sounded great too.

I think I'll do multiplease vids for this. Here's my first "sit down" with the tune today...trying a few impractical Johnny Smith isms.

So far, my ears like B half diminished to kick off bar 3 and a D#dim to end bar 4. We'll see where this goes over the next few days.

Nice CM version Mr. B! I saw many of my favorite chord forms and some really nice usage of them. I have been following your progress for a few years and I love the resulting progress I hear. Wonderful!!

wiz (Howie)

**Jonah** · 12-07-2016, 10:06 AM

I could not help it... I just like this version Jordan made and I add a link... hope he does not mind

Keep it up, Jordan

**M-ster** · 12-10-2016, 11:59 PM

Here's mine:
http://www.noiseinthebasement.com/mp...2000%20alt.mp3

**pkirk** · 12-11-2016, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by M-ster

Here's mine:
http://www.noiseinthebasement.com/mp...2000%20alt.mp3

Great playing. Your submissions always sound professional. How did you record/master this? what kind of guitars/amps?

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 12-11-2016, 04:30 AM

very pleasant,nice playing,nice impro,M-ster !

You don't need the Bass line behind,it doesn't add more to your lines
cheers
HB

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 12-11-2016, 07:18 AM

mine

**M-ster** · 12-11-2016, 06:55 PM

Thanks, gent's. Now I have to go back and finish my Nov submission ... !

Originally Posted by pkirk

Great playing. Your submissions always sound professional. How did you record/master this? what kind of guitars/amps?

At the risk of eliciting a "quaint" from Christian, I'm recording into my now-aging DAW.

Guitar slightly left is an Eastman T-145, played fingers; guitar slightly right is Ibanez GB-10 with pick. Both are just direct-in with no modelling or amps in the chain. Both received a bit of compression during mixing. No additional mastering (which is why the .mp3 is relatively quiet).

I often end up browsing the forum on a Surface Pro 3, which employs some kind of Dolby processing to all the audio that greatly compresses (and distorts) it, in my opinion. If you disable the Dolby, the audio is so quiet, it barely can be heard, unless no one else is home. My own tracks sound *so* awful on that device, that I haven't done *any* mastering moves on my last few submissions. (Just in case some of you folks are listening on similar devices!)

Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte

very pleasant,nice playing,nice impro,M-ster !

You don't need the Bass line behind,it doesn't add more to your lines ...

Ha! Well, I was trying to make this one somewhat of a guitar duet. The finger-style chord melody stands alone fairly well, but then it seemed to make no sense when Mr. Plectrum joined for the solo ... so I let both play throughout.