Jazz Blues - Why does it seem to get so little love around here?

**Dave70** · 06-05-2015, 08:55 AM

There's vids of Ted Greene playing and explaining jazz blues out there, I love this stuff:

(around 2 mins in he gets into it)

**Vladan** · 06-05-2015, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by richb2

Well Vladan, none of that around here! You could load 22 highly produced videos of your band playing "baby boomer rock", note for note, and no one would say anything. This jazz forum is the strangest bunch of dudes I have ever "met".

This forum must be one of the most open minded places on the net. Sometimes I'm on the verge of writing open letter to the forum, saying how full of it some people are, strictly friendly, I mean, but then I realize (again and again) that even the most orthodox zealots 'round here are true cosmopolitans compared to the average bunch out there.
I really enjoy this place for the people I "meet".

**dingusmingus** · 06-05-2015, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Vladan,

I am hesitant to admit it, but I have noticed some truth in your first sentence. To just be plain honest, IMHO there is an element of elitism that we all know about that makes some relegate Jazz Blues to a "lower rung" of the Jazz ladder.

But isn't that human nature? "My dogs better than your dog" like the songs says. I would not take it personally because it is clear in your music that you are no rookie.

Huh, that hasn't been my experience on this forum at all. Lots of people play blues tunes, lots of people like blues tunes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think there are as many clips of people playing blues as complex bebop, or modal tunes, or modern triad-pair workouts, or whatever.

It's also not by experience outside of this forum. Where I live, pretty much every jam session and gig includes at least one blues. I just saw Peter Bernstein with Larry Goldings and Bill Stewart--they killed it on at least two blues tunes in the set and a half I saw.

**Franklin52** · 06-05-2015, 09:51 AM

One of my favorites:

**AlsoRan** · 06-05-2015, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by dingusmingus

Huh, that hasn't been my experience on this forum at all. Lots of people play blues tunes, lots of people like blues tunes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think there are as many clips of people playing blues as complex bebop, or modal tunes, or modern triad-pair workouts, or whatever.

It's also not by experience outside of this forum. Where I live, pretty much every jam session and gig includes at least one blues. I just saw Peter Bernstein with Larry Goldings and Bill Stewart--they killed it on at least two blues tunes in the set and a half I saw.

Yes, I do stand corrected.

But I was only looking at the Jazz Blues threads, and with the exception of the two latest, they are normally rather short. In contrast, when you look at threads discussing improvisation over songs like All The Things You Are, Autumn Leaves, Giant Steps and other non Blues songs, they go on for pages and there is great interest.

I see now that this is not an indictment of Jazz Blues, but maybe more a reflection of the complexity of having so many different chord changes and key changes?

**Greentone** · 06-05-2015, 04:41 PM

Mebbe it's upper-EastSide cool to affect disdain for the blues (or Brooklyn hip). However, all the artists play the blues.

**danwaineo** · 06-05-2015, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I am always a bit suspicious of people who say things like that. People like Wes Montgomery and Johnny Griffin never stopped finding blues a great form to improvise on, for the whole of their lives.

Well the blues is certainly easier to play than most anything else in the realbook. I think this is especially true for guitar players who already have an instinct for 12 bars blues. The harmonies are so ingrained in me it is very difficult to get lost.

My teacher has been playing bass for 50 years and he finds playing standards boring. I think it's natural (especially in Jazz) to seek out new harmonies and rhythms. I'm sure we can all name standards that we are sick to death of playing.

I sure find the "all blues" radio station boring after two or three songs.

That said, I still love the blues and it is about 50% of what I practiced over the last few weeks.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-05-2015, 06:57 PM

Lol. Blues is easy?

Try playing something that isn't a cliché over a Parker blues at 240bpm.

Y'all crack me up. If the blues is easy, how come 9 out of 10 folks I hear try and play it suck?

**pushkar000** · 06-05-2015, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lol. Blues is easy?

Try playing something that isn't a cliché over a Parker blues at 240bpm.

Y'all crack me up. If the blues is easy, how come 9 out of 10 folks I hear try and play it suck?

After playing the blues at 240, try doing the same - playing something that isn't a cliche over 26-2 at 240 bpm. People have trouble playing non-cliche things on the blues? Man, those same people have trouble even playing cliches in the first place on 26-2!
9/10 folks you hear that suck at the blues - probably suck way harder on 26-2.
It's really hard to sound great on blues - as hard as anything - but its easier to feel comfortable over(this is different from sounding good) than most forms.

**danwaineo** · 06-05-2015, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lol. Blues is easy?

Try playing something that isn't a cliché over a Parker blues at 240bpm.

Y'all crack me up. If the blues is easy, how come 9 out of 10 folks I hear try and play it suck?

I wouldn't say the blues was easy, and we can always go deeper in our knowledge of the blues. However, if I put the realbook in order of difficulty generally the blues based tunes are going to be on the "easier" end, and Wayne Shorter songs are going to be on the "harder" end.

I'm not that good at playing fast, but I would say the Au Privave is easier to play than Confirmation.

Just my 2 cents.

**AlsoRan** · 06-05-2015, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lol. Blues is easy?

Try playing something that isn't a cliché over a Parker blues at 240bpm.

Y'all crack me up. If the blues is easy, how come 9 out of 10 folks I hear try and play it suck?

The only counterargument I would have to the bold, underlined part of your post is that in my mind, just about anything at 240 bpm is going to separate the skilled from the less-skilled, especially is one is trying to throw in triplets or 16th note runs.

I could see someone running out of ideas pretty quick.

**Sam Sherry** · 06-06-2015, 08:28 AM

Two things I love about this song:
1) IMO it perfectly rides the line between jazz and blues
ii) Sarah Vaughan

Sorry for the ad.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-06-2015, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Franklin52

One of my favorites:

O, man, that's the stuff. Thanks. I hadn't heard that.

**wolflen** · 06-07-2015, 01:36 PM

yep miles can do it...very "monk" flavored to me...it would take some salt and pepper to play on top of those "simple" changes---but miles and company =

March 16, 1956
Miles Davis (tpt); Sonny Rollins (ts); Tommy Flanagan (p); Paul Chambers (b); Arthur Taylor (d)

WARNING::: DONT BURN YOUR GUITAR--the link below is a kid (about 14yrs old) playing "parker" changes (donna lee)

**MarkRhodes** · 06-07-2015, 01:50 PM

I've posted this before and doubtless will again. It's one of my favorite recordings. Clifford Brown really tears it up here.

**gggomez** · 06-09-2015, 02:39 AM

Hey AlsoRan can we get discussing. I don't really have anything to offer but I will kick it off to hopefully bait some big fish and I can then sit back and take it in.

I understand the approach play Eb over Bb7 blues, this definitely seems to be what Grant Green does. He also seems to play chromatic lines over the Eb and often plays the major 7th of Eb.

Have been messing with playing Cminor pentatonic over the Cm7 F7 for some variation and that sounds alright.
The major minor 3rd on Bb7 Eb7 and G7 sounds good and the flat 5 sounds good to me on Bb and Eb.

Sticking the diminished chord in the blues progression does not make any sense to me at all.

Bruno does a rant about not playing Pentatonic but listening to Soulful Brothers by Kenny Burrell it sounds all Pentatonic to me and sounds fantastic

**pushkar000** · 06-09-2015, 03:50 AM

Bars 4-6 : Bb7 Bdim F7

This creates half step bass movement -> Bb, B C(5 of F)

**AlsoRan** · 06-09-2015, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by gggomez

Hey AlsoRan can we get discussing. I don't really have anything to offer but I will kick it off to hopefully bait some big fish and I can then sit back and take it in.

I understand the approach play Eb over Bb7 blues, this definitely seems to be what Grant Green does. He also seems to play chromatic lines over the Eb and often plays the major 7th of Eb.

Have been messing with playing Cminor pentatonic over the Cm7 F7 for some variation and that sounds alright.
The major minor 3rd on Bb7 Eb7 and G7 sounds good and the flat 5 sounds good to me on Bb and Eb.

Sticking the diminished chord in the blues progression does not make any sense to me at all.

Bruno does a rant about not playing Pentatonic but listening to Soulful Brothers by Kenny Burrell it sounds all Pentatonic to me and sounds fantastic

Hello GGG,

You are moving me faster than I can go, due to my time limits. I would have to stop and write out what you are doing so I could really investigate it. Unfortunately, I am bogged down with just using the Major and Minor Blues Scales these days. Between that and experimenting with the Swing Blues Book/Cd, (and a couple of speed exercise pursuits that I try to do every day) I am tapped out on time.

I am familiar with the Cminor Pentatonic over the Cm7 and the F7 and I do like that little diminished chord stuck in strategic spots in the Blues Progression. For me, it gets a little old just stick with the Dom and Minor chords.

I actually just started getting into the Jazz Blues around the first of the year since the changes are easier to hear and feel, at least for me. And, its been fun.

I have been making good progress so give me another month and I think I will be able to contribute more.

Oh, I also brought out Jimmy Bruno's fingering book to add to my workload so I KNOW it will be a month before I can really do any Jazz Blues conversation any kind of justice.

Keep it up, and I will catch up soon.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-09-2015, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by gggomez

[Jimmy] Bruno does a rant about not playing Pentatonic but listening to "Soulful Brothers" by Kenny Burrell it sounds all Pentatonic to me and sounds fantastic

Thanks for that! I have heard a good bit of KB but never that. Great way to start the day. ;o)

**wolflen** · 06-09-2015, 03:26 PM

there is tasty ... and then there is Kenny Burrell...

**pubylakeg** · 06-09-2015, 08:48 PM

Surprising thread. IMO No Blues=No Jazz. I suppose some players have it ingrained deeper than others, and at some points, Jazz has sought to both disregard & emphasise the blues undercurrent.

Anyway, for your interest, and consideration, have a listen to this.

From Leonard Feather's "Jazz Club USA" Tour, recorded 1954, in Koln, Germany.
Billie Holliday (v), Buddy DeFranco (cl), Red Norvo (vib), Jimmy Raney (g), Red Mitchell (b), & Elaine Leighton (d).

JR. plays the most un-cliched blues lines I've ever heard. His solo starts at 5m 03s.

**gggomez** · 06-09-2015, 09:16 PM

AlsoRan here is some inspiration. Jazz (to my ears) does not have to be crazy technical or theoretical.

Listen at 2:32. Love this Benson lick. It is minor pentatonic in everyone's favourite box the and adds the flat five on the glisses

If I get lost in a blues I take a breath and chuck this in to stimulate new ideas. Whilst it is for I chord it kind of works (you can make it work) on the IV the II and the V in case you stick in in the wrong place.

**AlsoRan** · 06-10-2015, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by gggomez

AlsoRan here is some inspiration. Jazz (to my ears) does not have to be crazy technical or theoretical.

Listen at 2:32. Love this Benson lick. It is minor pentatonic in everyone's favourite box the and adds the flat five on the glisses

If I get lost in a blues I take a breath and chuck this in to stimulate new ideas. Whilst it is for I chord it kind of works (you can make it work) on the IV the II and the V in case you stick in in the wrong place.

This is one kicking George Benson song. I first heard the transcription of it that Wolf Marshall put in his "Jazz Solos" book and then bought the Mp3. The beginning is awesome, although in the middle, I though the song kind of "meandered" (as one older lady once told me when I asked her opinion on Jazz Music) in the middle and then came back with that strong last portion.

That was a couple of years ago so I will give it a listen now with my more developed ears and see how it appeals to me.

Thanks GGG

**AlsoRan** · 06-10-2015, 05:55 PM

Hey, I can now appreciate the whole song. At first I thought the middle portions caused it to lose its driving power, but now I like the way it breaks up the song with a different kind of tension that makes you beg for the driving beat to return.

Bravo, George Benson and company.