The importance of knowing the lyrics of jazz standards

**Perdido** · 03-05-2015, 12:47 AM

Hi folks -- I seem to recall seeing in the past various quotes from the big guys in jazz on the relative importance of knowing the lyrics to a tune when playing it as an instrumental. I've got a good one from Dexter Gordon (lifted from Jamie Holroyd's site, thanks!), but are there any others out there with which anyone is familiar?

(Explanation for the need for the quotes available upon request, but I'm trying to save space and time here.)

Thanks!

**nick1994** · 03-05-2015, 12:50 AM

I remember hearing something about lester young. Someone asked him why he stopped playing, he replied "because I forgot the lyrics" or something like that

**Perdido** · 03-05-2015, 01:12 AM

Ah, thanks, Nick. That gave me a lead to go on. According to another site I just found, that story was attributed to Ben Webster.

Any others?

**cosmic gumbo** · 03-05-2015, 02:08 AM

Didn't John McLaughlin say he never really could play Giant Steps properly until he learned the lyrics?

**Broyale** · 03-05-2015, 04:27 AM

"Learn the lyrics of jazz tunes. Lyrics are important"
Broyale

**medblues** · 03-05-2015, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Perdido

Hi folks -- I seem to recall seeing in the past various quotes from the big guys in jazz on the relative importance of knowing the lyrics to a tune when playing it as an instrumental. I've got a good one from Dexter Gordon (lifted from Jamie Holroyd's site, thanks!), but are there any others out there with which anyone is familiar?

(Explanation for the need for the quotes available upon request, but I'm trying to save space and time here.)

Thanks!

Look for Russell Malone interviews on the web, he made it a strong point in one of them.

**Perdido** · 03-05-2015, 10:17 AM

Yeah, must've been that oft-referenced Broyale quote I was remembering initially. And if John McGlaughlin didn't say that about "Giant Steps," he should have. I did find an article on Russell Malone where he was said to stress the importance of learning the lyrics as well as the melody, but it wasn't a direct quote, so I'll try to chase that lead further. Thanks, all!

**vootie** · 03-15-2015, 08:39 AM

Lester Young is one of the last, I think, to insist on knowing the lyrics to songs. You can tell in his playing. But most of us learned standards instrumentally. I still don't know most of these songs' lyrics.

Many living players of repute give lip-service to lyrics, but I don't believe them.

The flip side is that I think many of the lyrics in The Songbook pale in comparison to the melody and chords. Having learned "Stella" instrumentally, for instance, I was disappointed finally to see the words. Pretty terrible. And "Satin Doll"? Don't get me started!

**Stuart Elliott** · 03-15-2015, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Didn't John McLaughlin say he never really could play Giant Steps properly until he learned the lyrics?

That doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't sound like an authentic quote to me. Giant Steps wasn't written with lyrics. Coltrane didn't need lyrics to create the melody, changes, or improvisations to Giant Steps. The lyrics were written long after the tune and are rather inane.

**vootie** · 03-15-2015, 03:09 PM

That's got to be a joke! Like the church lady who could only play Come to Jesus and I Remember Clifford.
Yes steer away from lyrics superimposed on instrumental jazz. They're almost always a disaster.

**DRS** · 03-16-2015, 09:05 AM

Like most things, absolutes aren't helpful. I find that I memorize melody better if I can hear a lyric too. But, they have to be good lyrics. Some songs were written with lyrics because they are from Broadway plays and the lyrics make sense. "My Funny Valentine" comes to mind. Understanding the way a singer sings this can e helpful. Others were pop songs with lyrics first such as "Autumn Leaves." I agree that songs that started out as instrumentals and then had some jazz singer superimpose lyrics years later are lame.

**dingusmingus** · 03-16-2015, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by vootie

Lester Young is one of the last, I think, to insist on knowing the lyrics to songs. You can tell in his playing. But most of us learned standards instrumentally. I still don't know most of these songs' lyrics.

Many living players of repute give lip-service to lyrics, but I don't believe them.

The flip side is that I think many of the lyrics in The Songbook pale in comparison to the melody and chords. Having learned "Stella" instrumentally, for instance, I was disappointed finally to see the words. Pretty terrible. And "Satin Doll"? Don't get me started!

That's interesting. I actually always learn the lyrics to standards I'm learning. I don't work hard to memorize, it's just that I listen to vocal versions of a tune when I'm learning it. Then the lyrics really are kind of welded to the melody for me.

I'm a mere hobbyist, so my experience likely isn't representative of what most others do.

When I listen to Coltrane play a standard, like I Hear A Rhapsody or Like Someone In Love, it always sounds to me like he's thinking about the lyrics. I mean that the phrasing and rhythm really seems to match the words.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-16-2015, 09:55 AM

Heck, I sometimes make up nonsense lyrics to tunes that don't have them because it helps me remember the melody better...

**Solo Flight** · 03-16-2015, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by vootie

That's got to be a joke! Like the church lady who could only play Come to Jesus and I Remember Clifford.
Yes steer away from lyrics superimposed on instrumental jazz. They're almost always a disaster.

But then there's this (along with lots of other LH&R's lyrics). This was the way I first heard this tune, long before I heard Horace Silver's own version:

**Larry Feldman** · 03-17-2015, 12:17 PM

Miles Davis stressed the importance of knowing the lyrics. Dexter Gordon would recite the lyrics to songs before playing them.

**Perdido** · 03-17-2015, 12:28 PM

Very cool video. Thanks, Larry!

**pushkar000** · 03-17-2015, 01:40 PM

I swear I saw Bucky Pizarelli say something once about this. Let me see if I can find the quote.
Edit : No, sorry it was not about lyrics. I'll update this post if I find a nice quote though.

I personally learn as much of the lyrics to a tune I can. Doesn't have to be a big deal, but its always nice and feels good to sing along while you're playing the head.

Edit : Here's Peter Bernstein talking a little bit about lyrics and learning tunes in general in the beginning. Not sure if its applicable to what you're looking for(so I didn't try to lift a quote), but its about as close as I could find.

I love this guy. He is awesome.

**Perdido** · 03-17-2015, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

I love this guy. He is awesome.

I agree. I had the great good fortune to snag a one-off lesson with Pete while in New York City last September (courtesy of my darling sister-in-law, who's an acquaintance) and yes, Pete told me he considers it paramount to know the melody when you're playing a standard (though he didn't expressly mention knowing the lyrics . . . though as Pete's and my people would say, "It couldn't hoit").

Thanks for all the quotes and leads, folks. I've got what I need now. Very much obliged.

**Stuart Elliott** · 03-21-2015, 07:41 PM

Here's a slightly different take on lyrics from trombonist J.J. Johnson. From the liner notes to his LP "Broadway," a collection of ten broadway tunes arranged for four trombones.

"The challenge in this kind of venture is that there are many good show tunes which are really effective only with their lyrics or in Broadway-style treatments. Amazingly, in some tunes, when you take away the lyrics, there's nothing there."

The liner notes say that Johnson had to search through hundreds of tune to find those with melodic or harmonic interest that make for tunes "that stand on their own."

**PMB** · 03-21-2015, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Heck, I sometimes make up nonsense lyrics to tunes that don't have them because it helps me remember the melody better...

To the irritation of my wife, I make up lyrics to tunes that already have them:

"She broke my nose, the blood it flows, tenderly, she split my lip, fractured my hip, tenderly ..."

**pushkar000** · 03-22-2015, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by PMB

To the irritation of my wife, I make up lyrics to tunes that already have them:

"She broke my nose, the blood it flows, tenderly, she split my lip, fractured my hip, tenderly ..."

Well...there's no forgetting that one now!

**Perdido** · 03-22-2015, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott

Here's a slightly different take on lyrics from trombonist J.J. Johnson. From the liner notes to his LP "Broadway," a collection of ten broadway tunes arranged for four trombones.

"The challenge in this kind of venture is that there are many good show tunes which are really effective only with their lyrics or in Broadway-style treatments. Amazingly, in some tunes, when you take away the lyrics, there's nothing there."

The liner notes say that Johnson had to search through hundreds of tune to find those with melodic or harmonic interest that make for tunes "that stand on their own."

Nice quote. Thanks, Stuart. I'll file that one away.