March 2026 - Old Folks

[ragman1]

Why have you written out the changes?

[Mick-7]

Why have you written out the changes?

1) Because the backing track I used was for alto sax, so the chord changes were written a minor 3rd lower, and 2) I may then convert them to roman numerals to help me grasp and remember the progression better.

This is the backing track I used:

[ragman1]

What made you say they're interesting?

I'll tell you one thing, they're difficult. There's two chords to each bar and it's not a very slow tune. What will you play over them? Personally, I fudged it, but don't tell anyone.

This is the one I used in the end, and I have 5 different ones. I chose it because it's very simply laid out. As we're talking, I've kept about eight different versions of it and threw away multiple others. For what it's worth.

[Mick-7]

Well, it's played at a slow tempo and some of the chords are passing chords, you don't have to play over every chord. I just played it by ear, didn't find it difficult but then I've been playing some difficult tunes lately.

I'd have to think about how I approached it, it felt like a blues to me. With a new tune I usually start by arpeggiating the chords, to get the sound of the chord transitions into my head.

[ragman1]

I've forgotten what I did with it now so I'll have to go over it again. Being lazy, I think two chords to a bar all the time is a bit much so I'll have to think of something else...

[Mick-7]

This would be my Simple Simon harmonic analysis.... along with attention to chord tones.

Old Folks:
A:
| Em7b5 - A7 | Dm7-Db7-Cm7-F7 | Bb^7 - Eb7 | Am7 - D7 | Gm7 - C7 | Am7b5 - D7 | G7 | Gm7 - C7 ||

| F major & harmonic major (= b6th) | Bb major | Bb major & melodic minor | G major | F major | Bb major & harmonic major | C major (F Major for A-2) | F major ||

B:
| Cm7 | F7 | Bb^7 | Eb7 | F^7 - Em7b5-A7 | Dm7 | G7 | Gm7 - C7 ||

| Bb major | Bb major | Bb major | Ab major | F major | C major | C major | F major ||

[ragman1]

I get it. This is how I do it. I don't do scales per se, I do chords I can play with.

Fm (Dm7b5 is Fm6 and to get 7b9 play min a tone below)

Cm (forget the run down)

AbM7 (M7's stay as they are)

Gm (ii of C7 minorisation)

etc (I better not do all of them. The Bm is Bb7alt, mel m half a step up from dom)

Here's the 'studio'(!) and this is the jotted out solo stuff).



More to come...

[ragman1]

This is the melody, sight-read roughly.

[ragman1]

This the solo using the chords on the bit of paper.

That's basically the whole idea. It's not always as simple as that. Infant Eyes was hell :-)

[ragman1]

A:
| Em7b5 - A7 | Dm7-Db7-Cm7-F7 | Bb^7 - Eb7 | Am7 - D7 | Gm7 - C7 | Am7b5 - D7 | G7 | Gm7 - C7 ||

| F major & harmonic major (= b6th) | Bb major | Bb major & melodic minor | G major | F major | Bb major & harmonic major | C major (F Major for A-2) | F major |

I think you're using the relative maj to play the minor ii-V-i. It's a recognised move and it works. The thing is that it won't necessarily give you any nice color tones.

Same sort of thing with the others. The BbM7's good if we don't spot the Eb7 afterwards. But look, the ii of Eb7 is Bbm... so you just go from Bb maj to Bbm, a one-note change. That's the usual trick for that.

If you're happy using maj scales for ii-v's (G and F) it's not wrong but, as before, you don't get a lot of color tones with it. If you just used the Am for the Am-D7 you could go 'underneath' the chord and use the G#, the 9th (B) and the 6th (F#), all of which is more like the melodic m. Same with the Gm-C7.

But the Am7b5 implies minor so you've used the relative F. It works, again, but have you tried playing C mel over it? Am7b5 is like Cm6 and Cm6 over D7 gives it the b9 note.

At the end of A2 you have a tonic V-I, C7 - F. Try C#m6 over the C7 and you'll turn it into C7alt which is a nice jazzy ending.

B:
| Cm7 | F7 | Bb^7 | Eb7 | F^7 - Em7b5-A7 | Dm7 | G7 | Gm7 - C7 ||

| Bb major | Bb major | Bb major | Ab major | F major | C major | C major | F major ||

Here's a trick for the Cm/F7 - BbM7. Play Cm then move it up a m3rd to Ebm and see what happens to the F7, it sounds like F7b9. Then drop that Ebm down to Dm and you've landed beautifully on the BbM7. Olé!

You can do the rest, it's all just the same tricks repeated.

And now I have a joke for you. Anything to get our minds off the music. You'll like it

[Mick-7]

As I said, that was a Simple Simon analysis, i.e., just simple tonal centers to work from. Personally, I rarely think about scales much anymore, just tonal centers and chord tones - when I have to think about it at all.

"The BbM7's good if we don't spot the Eb7 afterwards."

But I did, I said Bb major (for Bb^7) and Bb melodic minor for the Eb7 (= lydian dominant). Perhaps that wasn't clear.

"But the Am7b5 implies minor so you've used the relative F."

No, I wrote Bb major for the Am7b5 (= locrian mode) and Bb harmonic major for the D7, from D that would be: D-Eb-F-F#(Gb)-A-Bb-C, which has the b9, #9 & b13th.

"Here's a trick for the Cm/F7 - BbM7. Play Cm then move it up a m3rd to Ebm"

Not really a trick though since Cm+Ebm = Cm7(b5). But hey, whatever works for you!

"And now I have a joke for you..."

Then again, if the price of milk skyrockets, you'll be considered a very smart shopper!

[ragman1]

Sorry about the gap. I was posting all that at about 4 am so I needed some sleep.

I rarely think about scales much anymore

Well, I've got to say for a person who doesn't think about scales... the only things you posted were scales! Tonal centres and chord tones are good but played with what? Where do the notes come from?

But I did, I said Bb major (for Bb^7) and Bb melodic minor for the Eb7 (= lydian dominant).

Sorry, absolutely right. My mistake, I missed it.

I wrote Bb major for the Am7b5 (= locrian mode) and Bb harmonic major for the D7

Ok, but why so complex? It's just a minor ii-V and you have to swap halfway through the bar. I know a lot of stuff is written about the 'perfect' way to play a minor ii-V but there's got to be a simpler way. I've never used a harmonic major in my life. I obviously haven't lived :-)

Not really a trick though since Cm+Ebm = Cm7(b5). But hey, whatever works for you!

Oh, that's an old pro trick, it's on a lot of sites and vids, mostly talking about pentatonics. But I just play the notes and it certainly works nicely, not just for me.

See, the bottom line, to me, is can you (not you personally) play a solo with all these scales and stuff? I just sit down with my bit of paper and out it comes, as you heard. And there's many ways to use the same material all over the neck. But I look at all those scales and it's too complicated, to me anyway.

Hope you don't mind me saying that. It's not 'my method's better than your method', that's too childish. It's more about wanting a nice easy, stress-free life

[Mick-7]

Well, I've got to say for a person who doesn't think about scales... the only things you posted were scales! Tonal centres and chord tones are good but played with what? Where do the notes come from?

Scale babble is an old habit for me and tonal centers suggest scales so you can't really avoid them. It seems from what you posted that you too use chord tones to navigate the changes.

Ok, but why so complex? It's just a minor ii-V and you have to swap halfway through the bar.

The IIm chord in this instance is a m7b5, so if you don't want to ignore the b5, you'll need to use a set of notes that will cover it and the V7 chord that follows it.

Bb harmonic major (major scale with b6th) will work over both Am7b5 & D7. It's also Eb melodic minor with a raised 4th (A instead of Ab), so it avoids the maj.7th over the Am7b5.

[ragman1]

It seems from what you posted that you too use chord tones to navigate the changes.

I use chords from which lines can be made. They include chord tones, or the right notes by default, if you will. But the idea is to use the right chords. Most of them come from the tune itself and others are subs which provide color tones.

The IIm chord in this instance is a m7b5, so if you don't want to ignore the b5, you'll need to use a set of notes that will cover it and the V7 chord that follows it.

Absolutely, so for Am7b5 I'd use C mel m ( A B C D Eb F G A) and for D7b9 I'd use F mel m (D E F G Ab Bb C D) or Eb mel m (D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D) for an altered sound. What small clashes there are don't really matter, they're swallowed by the overall sound/feel of the lines.

But the real benefit is that, with the chord as the guide, the notes fall under the fingers. Thinking in terms of set scales means remembering and adjusting to set fingering patterns and the mind's tendency to regard the root as the guide point. Which, of course, it's not in most cases.

It's far easier to think in terms of Cm and Ebm than to think in terms of Bb harmonic major because the Bb is not really the guiding point at all. But you'll probably say it's all a matter of practice.

There's also the difficulty of having two chords in a bar and a whole sequence of them. Is it so easy to use two different scale patterns and swap them half-way through? Right in the middle of a tune where two-to-a-bar is so frequent, one following the other? I'd call that a nightmare. Looks okay on paper and theoretically but in real life it's very demanding - if indeed it's the right thing to do at all. It doesn't surprise me at all that people can't play this stuff if that's how they've been instructed.

[Question]

Here is a version of Old Folks as a chord melody in F.
Many people play this in Eb, but for me it lays better for a chord melody in F.

I have accompanied singers many times on Old Folks, but have never played the melody. Such a nice tune.

Here is anotherone with Drums and Bass: (Quartet App)

[Mick-7]

for Am7b5 I'd use C mel m ( A B C D Eb F G A) and for D7b9 I'd use F mel m (D E F G Ab Bb C D) or Eb mel m (D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D) for an altered sound.

That would be the chord/scale approach, which is not a practical strategy (as you note in your following comments). With the tonal/key centered approach, one would choose a primary scale for a series of chords, i.e., the chords in the tonal center, II-V-I or whatever.

Thinking in terms of set scales means remembering and adjusting to set fingering patterns and the mind's tendency to regard the root as the guide point.

The tendency to regard the root as a guide tone is a shortcoming of the chord/scale approach, it doesn't come up with the tonal center strategy.

[ragman1]

Mick, I've absolutely no idea what it's called. My object is to get round the changes in a fluid way. This Am7b5-D7(b9) is momentary, probably less than a second in real time, and just one of many such bars of music.

Have you actually been playing this tune? Not the head, that's given, but improv soloing over it? Are you telling me you come to multiple bars with two chords in them and have to navigate at least two 7-note scales in the space of a second while swapping scales half-way through? And keep doing that for the whole tune with more than one solo to play?

That seems to me to be a recipe doomed to failure and I wouldn't touch it, it's just not realistic or practical. A computer could doubtless do it but I couldn't.

But I can jot out my little chord shapes and go from one to the other without hesitation because it's easy. I've already demonstrated it. So I don't care how it's labelled, I just know it works. And I can do it on multiple solos, not just one, because there's no one way to do it and no one place on the guitar to do it.

Have you got a version so far? Show me how all those scales you listed out, usually two to a bar, flow nicely from your fingers for even only one solo and I'll concede your genius!

[Mick-7]

Have you actually been playing this tune? Not the head, that's given, but improv soloing over it? Are you telling me you come to multiple bars with two chords in them and have to navigate at least two 7-note scales in the space of a second while swapping scales half-way through? And keep doing that for the whole tune with more than one solo to play?

What are you talking about, rm, I just said I do not use the chord/scale approach, I said, "That would be the chord/scale approach, which is not a practical strategy."

And I already posted an audio clip of me improvising on the tune, in fact you commented on it. As I recall, my approach was to improvise on the melody (kept it in mind while improvising), I didn't analyze the chord changes other than to look for tonal centers as I mentioned.

[ragman1]

If you're not doing all this stuff you've been posting why are we discussing it at all?

I forgot your clip, apologies. Was that the one with feeling I said I liked? I did like it.

, rm,

What's rm?

[Mick-7]

If you're not doing all this stuff you've been posting why are we discussing it at all?

Just the usual thread drift, we could use a virtual border collie here.

I forgot your clip, apologies. Was that the one with feeling I said I liked? I did like it.

Yes, thank you.

What's rm?

Just my chord symbol for ragman, but I suppose it should be rm1? Was there ever another ragman here?

[ragman1]

Just the usual thread drift

Some drift.

Was there ever another ragman here?

No. When I was signing up for the forum in 2007 I messed it up so I had to start again. The thing said there was already someone called ragman and the name was taken so I changed it to ragman1. Silly really, it looks like an ego trip. I should have used a different name.

[ragman1]

Experimental, no head. Don't miss the experience.

[Mick-7]

Experimental, no head. Don't miss the experience.

Dr. Frankenstein would heartily approve of your experiment, rm....

Uh oh, better hide, the villagers have heard about it. They've lit their torches, grabbed their pitchforks, and are out on the hunt for you!

[kris]

Box

[Question]

Here is another version with Drums and Bass (from the Quartet App):