Four

[guitarvegas]

Who here is best qualified to give me lessons?...and you know me so you know what I need.

I need your price also. I don't want to break the bank, but I will pay for the right lesson plan made for me.

Thanks

[starjasmine]

You have a nice, round, warm tone, but you need to work a bit on refining your time, phrasing and note choices.
You would get much more out of in-person lessons with a teacher in your local area than over-the-web lessons with anyone, JB included.
As a first step, you might work through Jimmy's free stuff on youtube with your local guitar teacher.
I hope this is helpful and straightforward without being harsh. Don't quit! We all start at the beginning :-)

HTH

SJ

[pamosmusic]

You would get much more out of in-person lessons with a teacher in your local area than over-the-web lessons with anyone, JB included.

It’s great to have someone in your area, but if you find someone online who seems like a good fit, that’s better than someone local who isn’t.

Who here is best qualified to give me lessons?...and you know me so you know what I need.

I need your price also. I don't want to break the bank, but I will pay for the right lesson plan made for me.

Thanks

As for this bit, folks generally keep the specifics of their business off the public forum, but private message someone who seems like they get what you’re doing and I’m sure they’d be happy to refer you to someone they trust.

[starjasmine]

You have a nice, round, warm tone, but you need to work a bit on refining your time, phrasing and note choices.

Something you can do on your own to improve on these areas would be to learn to play the melodies of simple tunes note-for-note. Don't start with Donna Lee :-) Four might even be a bit too complicated for initial efforts. Tunes like Blue Bossa, Little Sunflower, Satin Doll, Green Dolphin Street, Footprints, or Girl From Ipanema would be good choices. Even pop tunes are fine. Just find something you want to play that is not too far beyond your current capabilities.

Once you choose a tune, find a simple, straightforward arrangement on YouTube and work on playing the melody only. Learn the melody one note at a time, memorized. Don't worry about learning it quickly, focus on learning it correctly. Get it to the point where you can play along with the recording EXACTLY, not hesitating or hitting wrong notes.

This simple exercise will sharpen SO many essential skills that you'll need for more advanced endeavors:
- pitch recognition
- playing in tune
- playing in time
- memorization
- phrasing

Take your time, go slow, don't burn out, focus on the small victories, and keep it fun ... practice EVERY DAY without fail! A half hour a day is MUCH better than 3.5 hours once a week. Before you know it, you will hear improvement in these basic "hard musical skills".

HTH

SJ

[Rolf Field]

Hey there, I'm not an experienced player although i play for about 30 years. Learned to play by ear. That made me to miss some knowledge and skills. Found me a teacher. And yes he's critical, straight forward etc. I know i'm not the best player so no problem.
I never post here to review my skills because i'm to unsecure for that. Guess you're a bit braver then me. Keep posting but expect critics to be realistic.
I've had a bit of a peculiar comment here on a post with a technical question. Someone felt ignored. Well yeah oke. sorry and move on.

[ragman1]

Wow, that's a bummer. People can be really nasty sometimes. Who was guitarvegas hurting with his posts?

Not me, just in case...!

I've said all I need to say to and about Brian already, openly. For one, I think if he wanted to learn guitar, or some other instrument, he'd have started it a long, long time ago. I think he's basically an artist at heart. Not that artists can't play music or someone can't start to learn in their 40's but it's certainly harder.

The real problem, apart from the real necessity to apply oneself diligently to it, is experience. It's the one thing no one can give, neither a book nor a teacher. Knowledge, yes, the effects of sheer long-term experience, no.

That said, unless the real drive is there any results of practice won't last. But, who knows, all things are possible.

[GuyBoden]

Jazz guitar is a 'hobby' for the majority on this forum, a 'hobby' is an activity that someone does for pleasure, so enjoyment should be the priority, IMHO.

[pamosmusic]

Another thing, if you are beginning this journey at a later stage in life, as I have, you may want to concentrate on songs more than scales etc. The jazz guitarist Peter Bernstein said “play the songs, everything is in the songs”. I am finding he is right. Just messing around with tunes will lead to studying chord inversions, triads, etc. Another advantage to this is it helps to provide a method to your study. You aren’t just jumping from one YT video to the next. It gives purpose to your study.

Some context for that advice from Peter Bernstein might be useful. He is a tune guy and it’s all in the tunes, but he’s also usually talking to students who have the fundamentals down. His advice to me usually seems more like You already have those scales and arpeggios and junk down,
so stop shedding those and start shedding tunes.

He’s not a big scale dude in the first place, but part of knowing a tune is understanding the melody and knowing what’s happening in the chord changes and that takes some fundamental knowledge and ear training and stuff.

It’s worth remembering that his audience is often chord-scale obsessed conservatory sophomores … so he’s often trying to rebalance them rather than saying fundamental skills aren’t important in the first place.

For the record, I don’t think you’re saying that. I just want to make sure Gv has some context for what you’re saying.

[pamosmusic]

If GV likes Peter Bernstein or is interested in that kind of approach, Jordan Klemons would be someone to reach out to.

He’s awesome …

NYC Jazz Guitar Masterclasses

If you dig the It’s All in the Tunes thing and want to study with Jordan or Bernstein or anyone like that, then you should expect to spend a month or two at least on Autumn Leaves and a blues in F. Just fair warning.

[guitarvegas]

Thanks to you guys. I want to say this has been a humbling experience for me. For a long time, I romantisized with the idea of carving out my own path, completely on my own. And I really believed I could do it all on my own. I am now faced with the truth of all of my limitations I have built into my method of approach, and how it has not served me well. I do think I have improved from 10 years ago, but not nearly what I could have seen if I had been with a teacher all along. What I have done in ten years, I could have probably arrived to in less than a year with the right instructor. But you know, all is not lost. I am pushing 50....and with that said, yeah...I may have formed a lifetime of bad habits that may be hard to shake. But I think I am still malleable in the sense that I think I can still learn from a studied and structured approach. But it will take the right teacher. One that will show me what I specifically need....personalized for me and for where I am at at this present moment. The wrong teacher will be just like going to a slot machine at the casino.

I know I have hit a brick wall. I know that if I want things to get better that I must have a teacher to guide me there. I know it! And knowing this is half the battle.
I also believe that I have something underneith all of this, that if applied...that I actually could become a good player. Jazz player, or whatever genre. But lets stick with Jazz as the theme because that is the music that speaks to my heart. I could become good! And that in itself is enough for me to want to continue this journey. Yes, I want a teacher. I hesitate to find some guy in Orlando to sit down with in person. I just hesiate because I may be going down the rabbit hole and end up with a handful of wrong teachers that may be wasting my time and money. Although, I think I found one here on this forum last night and I am about to PM him. His name is Jack Zucker, and he is a former student of Pat Martino. I watched a few of his YouTube videos and I was very impressed almost immediately. His price range seems to be good also, so I am going to do this. I am going to start out with 30 minute lessons bi-weekly for starters. That is what I want to spend right now. If I need more later on, I can adjust. But folks, I am going to do this. What not? What do I have to lose?

[pamosmusic]

Jack is very very very well known on the forum. He’s an A+ dude. He used to be in and out of all kinds of threads, but now mostly just posts his short YouTube lessons. Which are extremely cool.

Definitely would be a really interesting person to study with. Check out his Sheets of Sound books too. They’d probably be great to have in hand when you’re meeting with him. They’ve been out for maybe fifteen years now? I got the first one when I went to college. Really great stuff as sort of practical technical etudes for electric guitar. Kind of the closest thing we have to Arban’s or something at the moment.

Good choice. Let us know how it goes.

[starjasmine]

Finding an in-person instructor is not that hard. Ask other guitarists in your area who they recommend. Ask for recommendations at the music department in any nearby college or community college.

I'm sure you'd get a lot out of studying with Jack, but I'm stressing in-person because a video connection is no comparison to sitting two feet away from a great player who can show you how they do things. Especially for a beginner.

If you can do both, do that. Maybe arrange your biweekly lessons to create a weekly lesson schedule that alternates between Jack and an in-person guy.

Whatever you do, commit - I mean REALLY COMMIT - to DAILY practice. Without fail. A half-hour a day is fine to start. When you are ready for more, you'll know.

When students used to ask me how much they should practice, I would counter with "How badly do you want to become a better player?" When it comes down to it, you have to teach yourself how to execute what the teacher shows you, no matter who the teacher is. Effective daily practice is critical to that achievement.

Go for it and good luck!

[guitarvegas]

Finding an in-person instructor is not that hard. Ask other guitarists in your area who they recommend. Ask for recommendations at the music department in any nearby college or community college.

I'm sure you'd get a lot out of studying with Jack, but I'm stressing in-person because a video connection is no comparison to sitting two feet away from a great player who can show you how they do things.

If you can do both, do that. Maybe arrange your biweekly lessons to create a weekly lesson schedule that alternates between Jack and an in-person guy.

Whatever you do, commit - I mean REALLY COMMIT - to DAILY practice. Without fail. When students used to ask me how much they should practice, I would counter with "How badly do you want to become a better player?"

I don't know any guitarists in my area. I know you guys.I'm gonna go with Jack for now and see how this works out. Half of it is him, and the other half is all me. So lets see if together, we can bring my playing and music knowledge up to speed (slowly). If my money is going into it, I am ALL IN.

[pamosmusic]

Finding an in-person instructor is not that hard. Ask other guitarists in your area who they recommend. Ask for recommendations at the music department in any nearby college or community college.

I think this is a little bit dismissive. Where I was growing up, I would’ve had to drive an hour at the very least to find a jazz guitar teacher. As it happens I was really lucky with the guy I got assigned to at the local music store. Not a jazz guy but an excellent teacher. He left and I had one lesson with the other guitar teacher there and then stopped.

I'm sure you'd get a lot out of studying with Jack, but I'm stressing in-person because a video connection is no comparison to sitting two feet away from a great player who can show you how they do things. Especially for a beginner.

This is one of those things that seems like it just must be true, but that I don’t think actually is true.

Im not sure what I could teach in the room that I couldn’t teach online. Even beginners at this point. I basically refrain from ever touching students, partly because I don’t want a student to feel uncomfortable and partly because they need to learn posture etc in a way that they can check and correct when they’re on their own. Me moving and placing them where they should go doesn’t do that because I don’t leave the lesson with them.

So I’d be curious what in particular you would get out of in person lessons that you wouldn’t get out of them online?

And I’m asking as a person who prefers taking in person lessons. I just think that’s a personal preference and vibes thing rather than a practical thing in my case.

When students used to ask me how much they should practice, I would counter with "How badly do you want to become a better player?" When it comes down to it, you have to teach yourself how to execute what the teacher shows you, no matter who the teacher is. Effective daily practice is critical to that achievement.

I kind of consider that a teachers primary job. Right? There really isn’t much magic in the actual information. But helping a person figure out how to make it happen is the thing makes a person a good teacher rather than just a competent communicator.

Also for what it’s worth, I still have students who insist on in person lessons and that’s totally valid. Almost universally these are young adults who spent considerable time on zoom for school and just don’t want that. Which is great and fine

[guitarvegas]

Sent Jack an intro to myself as a guitar player, where I have been, all the way to where I am at, and I am also sending him a video of my current playing for context. It should give any good teacher all of the insight into what lessons are most important, and where to begin with me. I re-recorded "Four", and I think it is good that I am playing with Miles, because he can easily see all of my weak points, because they will stand out like timing, phrasing, any hesitation, wrong or right chord voicings, etc. Plus he understands that I have zero music theory knowledge and everything I do is either guess work or playing strictly by ear.

[pamosmusic]

Sick.

Just bear in mind that even an excellent teacher might not be a good fit.

Jack might be the dude, or he might be great in ways you don’t need, or your personalities might not mesh well or whatever.

Sometimes finding the right teacher can take a little trial and error. Even if you’re starting with someone who has lots of experience and lots of knowledge. That wouldn’t be a poor reflection on you or the teacher necessarily.

That said, what starjasmine said about committing is also 100% true. If a teacher feels like someone who you can work with and is speaking to the stuff you want to learn, then you’ll need to stick it out to get the results you want.

[guitarvegas]

Update on lessons:

Before I get my first lesson, Jack wants me to play chords and solo over a blues jazz 12 bar track. So, I could have just dove right in like I usually do....but no....not this time. This time around I figured I would study up, and with some great tips from Jens Larson, I have a nice road map to an F blues. I have learned all of the chords, and have been working all day on all of the arpeggio's. This is a great place to start. It is messing with me a bit, because it is forcing me to play differently, using different patterns that my muscle memory is not used to. It's good! Just wanted you all to know what is happening. I need this formal structure in my practice, otherwise I wander pretty easily....lol.

[starjasmine]

>>Finding an in-person instructor is not that hard.

I think this is a little bit dismissive. Where I was growing up, I would’ve had to drive an hour at the very least to find a jazz guitar teacher.

That's funny, your accusing me of being dismissive....and then dismissing everything I have to say. I can't find the post at this time, but I believe that Brian is in Orlando or some other major metro area. The place literally crawls with guitar teachers. Also, IDK how your experience growing up maps to what it takes to find a guitar teacher in this day of the interwebs...

>>a video connection is no comparison to sitting two feet away from a great player who can show you how they do things. Especially for a beginner.

This is one of those things that seems like it just must be true, but that I don’t think actually is true.
Im not sure what I could teach in the room that I couldn’t teach online.

Teaching in the room is a richer and more informative experience. For me, being in the room and being able to look at a player's mechanical technique (fretting and picking) from any angle (as opposed to being limited by camera angle and video definition) as well as being able to hear what they're doing without any aliasing, delay or audio compression is far superior to an online lesson. I have had teachers offer to let me play their axes, and I've asked them to look at, play, and evaluate mine. I've had teachers help me with dynamics and tone both acoustically and through a signal chain - mine or theirs. Again, not so easy to do online. Rarely, as a beginner, a teacher has placed my fingers on the fretboard for me when verbal descriptions or written notation was getting in the way instead of helping, but that's an anomaly, not a necessary condition for teaching live.

So I’d be curious what in particular you would get out of in person lessons that you wouldn’t get out of them online?

As a music major in college and as an adult student afterwards, the experience of being in the physical presence of one of my musical heroes has been inspiring and motivating. When you are in a little practice room with someone who has recorded with the greats and has a professional pedigree in film, tv and orchestral work - and, more importantly, ALWAYS plays their a-- off - it produces an odd feeling of intimidation and privilege. It really makes you want to make the most of the opportunity. That may not happen with every student and every teacher, but it did happen with me and several of my teachers.

To be clear, I'm not saying "Don't study online." I'm saying that all things being equal, the in-person lesson experience will be the better one.

I want to turn this question back to you. You said that you prefer in-person lessons. Why do you prefer them?

>> When students used to ask me how much they should practice, I would counter with "How badly do you want to become a better player?" When it comes down to it, you have to teach yourself how to execute what the teacher shows you, no matter who the teacher is. Effective daily practice is critical to that achievement.

I kind of consider that a teachers primary job. Right? There really isn’t much magic in the actual information. But helping a person figure out how to make it happen is the thing makes a person a good teacher rather than just a competent communicator.

I'm not sure if I'm following you... What are you saying is the primary job? To motivate? To inspire? To explain theory? To teach musicianship? To encourage good practice habits? The primary job depends on the situation of the individual student. If you are babysitting a kid whose parents have parked them in your practice room against their will, your primary job is to find a way to make the time worthwhile for both of you. If your student just wants to learn Clapton licks, and you can provide that instruction, maybe they'll be inspired but will that motivate them to practice or will they just give up?

Update: in all situations, the primary job is to help the student. How to do that will vary according to the student and their goals.

Re: the statement about there not being much magic in the actual information. First of all, what information are we talking about? Basic diatonic theory? Yeah, not much magic... unless the student knows nothing about it and you are opening a big door for them. Hearing what you play and playing what you hear? Realizing advanced harmonies and performance techniques in real time? A lot of this can be broken down a step at a time on a loooong journey, but some of this is definitely magical. When you hear someone do something that entrances you, that you can't figure out how to do on your own, and they reveal to you how to approach that thing, yeah, it can be magical.

But YMMV. Maybe we just don't look at/hear/ play music in the same way, and that's fine.

[pamosmusic]

l
That's funny, your accusing me of being dismissive....and then dismissing everything I have to say.

I mean … I argued point by point which is kind of the opposite of dismissing, but apologies, I suppose.

Teaching in the room is a richer and more informative experience. For me, being in the room and being able to look at a player's mechanical technique (fretting and picking) from any angle (as opposed to being limited by camera angle and video definition) as well as being able to hear what they're doing without any aliasing, delay or audio compression is far superior to an online lesson. I have had teachers offer to let me play their axes, and I've asked them to look at, play, and evaluate mine. I've had teachers help me with dynamics and tone both acoustically and through a signal chain - mine or theirs. Again, not so easy to do online. Rarely, as a beginner, a teacher has placed my fingers on the fretboard for me when verbal descriptions or written notation was getting in the way instead of helping, but that's an anomaly, not a necessary condition for teaching live.

Fair points. The dynamics thing I haven’t had much issue with. Generally I’m able to hear pretty well. I had a classical student Sunday saying his tone was too bright and I was able to hear that it was the contact point with the ring finger nail, and the shape of that nail, and it was. So there’s definitely some issues with that, but none I haven’t been able to work through with some practice.

The instrument one just isn’t high on my list of priorities. Now that I’m thinking about it, I don’t think I’ve ever played one of my teachers’ guitars in a lesson. Maybe my classical teacher’s once? Don’t remember.

Being a richer or more informative experience would really just depend on what you like.

As a music major in college and as an adult student afterwards, the experience of being in the physical presence of one of my musical heroes has been inspiring and motivating. When you are in a little practice room with someone who has recorded with the greats and has a professional pedigree in film, tv and orchestral work, you get an odd feeling of intimidation and privilege. It really makes you want to make the most of the opportunity. That may not happen with every student and every teacher, but it did happen with me and several of my teachers.

That’s true but also not really applicable for 99.99% of teachers. Most excellent teachers are just teachers. And sometimes those players who have inspired me and who made me feel that feeling you describe were not really great teachers.

I'm not sure if I'm following you... What are you saying is the primary job? To motivate? To inspire? To explain theory? To teach musicianship? To encourage good practice habits?

Practice habits. You had said ….

When it comes down to it, you have to teach yourself how to execute what the teacher shows you, no matter who the teacher is. Effective daily practice is critical to that achievement.

So I was saying that I would think of teaching you how to execute and make an effective practice routine is kind of what I would consider to be the primary job of a teacher in that context.

Re: the statement about there not being much magic in the actual information. First of all, what information are we talking about? Basic diatonic theory? Yeah, not much magic. Realizing advanced harmonies and performance techniques in real time? A lot of this can be broken down a step at a time on a loooong journey, but some of this is definitely magical.

I don’t know, I suppose so. I can’t count the number of times I’ve gotten information that felt magical at the time but then just didn’t really end up being that useful. The amount of cool shit I know but never use is both kind of fun and a little disappointing. In hindsight most of the theory I see in the stuff I transcribe you could probably explain in a few pages and fold up to put in your pants pocket. But then I’ve also had some lessons that were really revolutionary, and those were lessons where I actually learned how to practice something simple that I thought I knew, or where over the course of a a half dozen lessons something small became clear.

So for me the magic has been in ways to navigate the information. The information itself tends to be pretty simple (or really heavy and interesting and not all that practical). And as a teacher, I often wind up with students who have a lot of knowledge and can’t use any of it.

[pamosmusic]

To be clear, I'm not saying "Don't study online." I'm saying that all things being equal, the in-person lesson experience will be the better one.

I want to turn this question back to you. You said that you prefer in-person lessons. Why do you prefer them?

“All other things being equal” is the operative thing there. I’d rather be online with a great teacher than in the room with a good one.

And to answer your question … I like drinking my coffee with people. I don’t know — it’s the way I learned, so I like it the way I like writing all my notes on paper.

I haven’t really even gotten a lesson since the zoom thing became commonplace but I’d take one that way in a heartbeat.

[starjasmine]

“All other things being equal” is the operative thing there. I’d rather be online with a great teacher than in the room with a good one.

great and good are not equal :smh: ... SAME teacher in both cases - you pick great or good - seems like you'd prefer in person but are going out of your way to defend the idea of studying online, which I never said was a bad idea. I just said I think in-person is better IF there is no other difference that would be a mitigating factor.

And to answer your question … <snip> I don’t know — it’s the way I learned <snip>

I was trying to get you to actually explain what benefit you get from an in-person lesson. Sounds like it's because it's familiar to you or because the social aspect, the 'hang', is a part of it. Which is cool. (And it was for me, too, with my favorite teachers. They were cool people not just cool musicians.)

OK, we've derailed GV's thread enough :-) @GV, I'm glad you are moving forward - that's an accomplishment in itself. It's only up from here :-)

[pamosmusic]

great and good are not equal :smh: ... SAME teacher in both cases - you pick great or good - seems like you'd prefer in person but are going out of your way to defend the idea of studying online, which I never said was a bad idea. I just said I think in-person is better IF there is no other difference that would be a mitigating factor.

Then we're kind of having an abstract argument that doesn't have much to do with the practical situation. Sure, if I could study in person with the person I wanted to study with and they were twenty minutes away or whatever ... absolutely I would do that. If they were two hours away? I don't know -- how often am I expecting to take lessons. Six hours away? Zoom for sure.

Would I take in-person lessons with someone else who wasn't quite as good a fit just because they were in-person? I would not. Being in-person doesn't really offer me much to compensate for someone being a better teacher or a better fit.

And for what it's worth, I started pushing back on this ...

You would get much more out of in-person lessons with a teacher in your local area than over-the-web lessons with anyone, JB included.

And I didn't think that was true. But it sounds like you're saying something else.