Pat Metheny - On What Swing Is

[Boston Joe]

[matt.guitarteacher]

Background music has its place. I probably wouldn't play Stravinsky etc at a party. By default it's always going to have a broader appeal. People who care zero about music "use it", on occasion, for specific purposes other than stimulation and active engagement. Kenny g isn't the problem any more than Madonna or Musak or any other ambient sound.

Jazz is a good starting point from which to create ambient sounds. Pretty easy to be defensive about it I guess. Who cares??

[pingu]

From memory , Pat seemed to say Kenny's
Music didn't do anything for him but
Hey that's fine , strokes for folks etc

BUT big BUT ....
when Kenny blew all over Louis Armstrong ...

That was wrong , you just don't do that ,
and it made Pat mad and he went into the rant

Fair enough ?

[Boston Joe]

From memory , Pat seemed to say Kenny's
Music didn't do anything for him but
Hey that's fine , strokes for folks etc

BUT big BUT ....
when Kenny blew all over Louis Armstrong ...

That was wrong , you just don't do that ,
and it made Pat mad and he went into the rant

Fair enough ?

Yeah, that's how I recall it as well. He said it was creepy enough when Natalie Cole overdubbed herself on Unforgettable, but hey, at least it's her dad.

[unknownguitarplayer]

Never understood why Larry Coryell more or less got a pass when he overdubbed himself with Wes, but G took so much heat.

[rabbit]

I'm no fan of Kenny G's music but I don't have time or energy to dislike him.

By the way, if you think playing a soprano saxophone is so easy, you are wrong.
Regardless of his taste, he is a highly skilled musician. I own a couple of
sax's and an 'agony stick' and appreciate these difficult instruments from experience.
Every note must be formed & controlled. Saxophonists, seemingly universally, despise him.

I'm sure he's laughing all the way to the bank, having done no one any real harm while making
his pile. If he matters to you, you are enjoying an emotional luxury and I congratulate you
on your good fortune.

As for the 'desecration' of past Jazz Titans, they'd probably be happy to see the royalty checks
and they are not around to be asked.

[unknownguitarplayer]

My understanding is that before he left Kansas, Metheny was a 14 year old marvel on the local scene who was deep into Wes and would play gigs in that style for hours. I think the Wes "melody first" concept is baked pretty deep into his style. Granted, those who grew up on Pat may not have dug as deep, but I don't think he is lacking in the "edifice's foundation".

[Boston Joe]

By the way, if you think playing a soprano saxophone is so easy, you are wrong.
Regardless of his taste, he is a highly skilled musician. I own a couple of
sax's and an 'agony stick' and appreciate these difficult instruments from experience.
Every note must be formed & controlled. Saxophonists, seemingly universally, despise him.

When my dad was teaching me to drive, he said, "Being able to drive is not the same thing as being able to aim a car." Similarly, making music is not the same thing as being able to operate an instrument. Plus there's the fact, as Pat mentions in his rant, that he plays consistently sharp.

As for the 'desecration' of past Jazz Titans, they'd probably be happy to see the royalty checks
and they are not around to be asked.

Well, there's the point, eh? They don't do that stuff with live musicians because they'd have to get permission and pay for it. And the dead musicians aren't around to opine on the results.

Never understood why Larry Coryell more or less got a pass when he overdubbed himself with Wes, but G took so much heat.

I think it's kind of a dick move no matter who does it. Not one one Larry's better moments. And I really like Larry's stuff. No pass from me.

[tribalfusion]

Never understood why Larry Coryell more or less got a pass when he overdubbed himself with Wes, but G took so much heat.

It's in part because Coryell is a much more serious player and even so Metheny also mentioned not liking that either and I also thought it was in bad taste.

[ronjazz]

Pat wants to be a celebrity too...like Madonna and Kenny G.

Not gonna happen. Thus his discontent.

The masses don't give a darn about jazz.

I know Pat fairly well, the idea of celebrity holds no interest for him. Are you reduced to lying because you've been called out? His discontent? His discontent, as most jazz fans concur, is based on the fatuous, unswinging, simpleminded playing on Kenny G's theft of the music of a great jazz legend. Since Pat has won the admiration of the people he admires most, he really doesn't care to be a vapid, worthless, attention-seeking star like Kenny G or Madonna, neither of which can carry his empty case, musically speaking. Artists don't do it for money, whores do. Jazz artists don't care about the masses, they know that the masses are ignorant enough to make Kenny G a multi-millionaire. Pat's net worth is only 5 million, what a failure.

[tribalfusion]

Pat wants to be a celebrity too...like Madonna and Kenny G.

Not gonna happen. Thus his discontent.

The masses don't give a darn about jazz.

One of the dumber quotes I have seen on here.

Pat Metheny wants to be a celebrity like Kenny G or Madonna?

Collaborating with the cream of the jazz and fusion crop like Brecker, Corea, Diorio, Hall, Swallow, Haden, Hancock, Scofield, Roy Haynes, Jaco etc and also working with some of the best Israeli, Brazilian and Argentinian musicians around is hardly the route to being a popstar or even an instrumental popstar like Kenny G.

What IS amazing is that despite making challenging music, Metheny has managed to be one of the most successful serious musicians in the jazz world with 20 Grammy awards and over 20 million albums sold.

In fact, in the US, he plays the same size venues as Kenny G who plays music DESIGNED to sell. Pat has done all this while playing with people like Brecker or Chris Potter.

And actually, in much of the rest of the world, Pat outdraws Kenny G.

Why Madonna is mentioned is truly beyond me.

[ronjazz]

Never understood why Larry Coryell more or less got a pass when he overdubbed himself with Wes, but G took so much heat.

Maybe because Larry can play?

[Eric Rowland]

I've heard Metheny discuss how he kind of rejects notions of jazz requiring certain "components" to be legitimately jazz. The concept of "swing" being one of them. I have noticed he tends to avoid the use of that term. Rather he will use words like "groove" or "vibe" in describing desirable qualities he looks for in the music he creates. It seems like the notion of swing might be too narrowly thought of as the dotted eight and sixteenth phrasing. And I think Metheny has taught us that you can have jazz both with and without that traditional phrasing.

I've recently been going back and listening to his early stuff and am floored at how bold he was as jazz guitarist. It's like he thumbed his nose at the jazz community! He basically threw out everything that was typically considered fundamental to jazz guitar. His tone was not warm and sweet sounding. He rolled off a ton of bass and got this very midrangey tone with that chorus/delay tone. And no swing phrasing! Yet he was recognized as a jazzer.

Now he moved past that and for years now has been going more freely between a more traditional vibe and his signature stuff. He really has no boundaries at this point.

What an inspiration he is.

An excellent synopsis...and yes he is!

[deselby]

METHENY: Yeah, acting. And refrigerator repair.

Pat channeling Bob.

[lawson-stone]

Metheny's rants on Kenny G. are sad. Such envy.

Kenny G.'s elevator music has made him a very rich man. Metheny hates him for that.

But what really makes him hate Kenny G. is the fact that hardly anyone really cares about Pat Metheny and his music outside of a small fan base. "How can that be? I am so great!"

Well, Pat, you are great but the masses don't go for your music. They go for Kenny G's dentist chair music.

Metheny is not in the poor house by any means.

Metheny's net worth:

Pat Metheny Net worth - Musician, songwriter | Celebrity Glad
Kenny G. net worth:

Kenny G Net Worth | Celebrity Net Worth

This makes no sense. Pat Metheny has, more than any other jazz musician, managed to combine a broad, appealing body of work that certainly has justifiably made him financially secure, with a high artistic integrity.

He has won 20 Grammy awards. That's a lot of critical acclaim, and not all are for jazz, or even guitar. Several are simply for best jazz-fusion performance, one is for rock instrumental, a couple are for "best instrumental" and he even wrote a highly acclaimed musical score for a movie.

All of this, and still experimenting, still pushing his listeners to think harder and broaden their sensibilities, and retaining a dogged dedication to live performance. I think they guy gigs about 200 days a year, actually playing for live audiences. I know of very few financially successful (okay, rich!) musicians who still gig that much.

Metheny has maintained his integrity, followed his dreams, taken huge risks with some truly opaque albums, and built an audience that has given him financial rewards, critical acclaim, and wild applause in hundreds of live performances every year.

That strikes me as a genuinely superlative accomplishment. I was slow to "get" Metheny, but when I did, it was one of the most mind and heart broadening musical epiphanies of my life.

[matt.guitarteacher]

This makes no sense. Pat Metheny has, more than any other jazz musician, managed to combine a broad, appealing body of work that certainly has justifiably made him financially secure, with a high artistic integrity.

He has won 20 Grammy awards. That's a lot of critical acclaim, and not all are for jazz, or even guitar. Several are simply for best jazz-fusion performance, one is for rock instrumental, a couple are for "best instrumental" and he even wrote a highly acclaimed musical score for a movie.

All of this, and still experimenting, still pushing his listeners to think harder and broaden their sensibilities, and retaining a dogged dedication to live performance. I think they guy gigs about 200 days a year, actually playing for live audiences. I know of very few financially successful (okay, rich!) musicians who still gig that much.

Metheny has maintained his integrity, followed his dreams, taken huge risks with some truly opaque albums, and built an audience that has given him financial rewards, critical acclaim, and wild applause in hundreds of live performances every year.

That strikes me as a genuinely superlative accomplishment. I was slow to "get" Metheny, but when I did, it was one of the most mind and heart broadening musical epiphanies of my life.

To be fair, nothing was said about his musicianship or his importance in jazz etc.

I, personally, don't understand complaining about the Kenny G's of the world. I don't think there's a lot to be gained from pondering what people "should" appreciate, or what should be popular or what people should care about.

Honestly, I didn't listen/read the interview. Maybe he was asked directly about it? Otherwise, I would generally think that it's somewhat beneath an artist of his caliber to spend time talking about Kenny G that way....Or Lil Wayne or Madonna etc.

[Boston Joe]

Honestly, I didn't listen/read the interview. Maybe he was asked directly about it? Otherwise, I would generally think that it's somewhat beneath an artist of his caliber to spend time talking about Kenny G that way....Or Lil Wayne or Madonna etc.

I believe he was asked about it and at the time didn't have a lot to say. Later he posted a thing on his website talking in some detail about KG. The gist of it was, 'Kenny G. holds himself out as a jazz artist, so let's evaluate him by actual jazz criteria...' and then goes on to do so.

I found it entertaining, but KG has so little impact on my world that it's not much of an issue for me. I just enjoyed the writing. Maybe later when I've got some time, I'll find the original note and put up a link to it. For what it's worth, I doubt that Pat probably gave it much thought beyond that, and I'd suspect he might be somewhat chagrined at all the attention it's gotten.

[artdecade]

Kenny G is not jazz, but he is a very gifted musician. Here is the thing - I don't care for his music, but that doesn't mean I don't rate him. He can play rings around most people, but he isn't worried as much about working through the changes as he is selling a Christmas album. And that is okay, too. Everyone gets into music for different reasons - some love the game and some love the fame. At the end of the day, I don't think Kenny G cares about getting Pat's seal of approval. But for me, Pat makes the kind of music that I love and the guys that he rates are probably guys that I will love as well. There is enough room in music to accommodate fans of both artists without turning the enjoyment into some type of zero-sum game.

[tribalfusion]

Kenny G is not jazz, but he is a very gifted musician. Here is the thing - I don't care for his music, but that doesn't mean I don't rate him. He can play rings around most people .

LOL what? Kenny G is a gifted businessman perhaps but as a saxophonist he is not especially gifted by any measure I can see. He's a solid smooth jazz saxophonist I suppose but...

He can play rings around most people in what sense?

It's not just the Breckers, Shorters, Potters and Liebmans of the world who are in another galaxy compared to him but also players most casual listeners haven't even heard of like Rick Margitza, Bob Sheppard, Donny McCaslin, Steve Grossman, George Garzone, Seamus Blake, Tommy Smith, Walt Weiskopf, Jerry Bergonzi etc.

These guys all have students who can play rings around Kenny G.

[artdecade]

You are claiming that Kenny G is not better than a shortlist of some of the best jazz players the world has ever seen (and he's not). They surely aren't what I had in mind when I said "most people" - and most musicians aren't playing jazz. Technique and improvisation aren't the same thing and its what separates jazz from just about everything else. Once again, Kenny G is not a jazz musician, but he is a fine musician that plays beautiful melodies with flair, finesse, and tone - even if I don't really care with what he chooses to record.

EDIT: I suppose I should note that I am rating Kenny G as a pop instrumentalist rather than a jazz musician - and there is room for all of us.

[christianm77]

.... something tells me this might turn into a "what the hell does Metheny know about swing!" debate....

Oh please don't lol.

Too late I see.

[tribalfusion]

You are claiming that Kenny G is not better than a shortlist of some of the best jazz players the world has ever seen (and he's not). They surely aren't what I had in mind when I said "most people" - and most musicians aren't playing jazz either. Vai and Satch can outplay most people on the planet, but they are not jazz players either. I could imagine both of them getting lost playing Giant Steps. Technique and improvisation aren't the same thing and its what separates jazz from just about everything else. Once again, Kenny G is not a jazz musician, but he is a fine musician that plays beautiful melodies with flair, finesse, and tone - even if I don't really care with what he chooses to record.

EDIT: I suppose I should note that I am rating Kenny G as a pop instrumentalist rather than a jazz musician.

I named a bunch of guys who are not on most people's shortlist but I could have added so many more...

Andy Middleton, Bill Evans, Bob Mintzer, Kenny Garrett, Brandon Fields, Branford Marsalis, Chad Lefkowitz, Chris Cheek, David Binney, Bob Malach, Bob Franceschini, Ernie Watts, Gary Meek, Joe Lovano, Noah Preminger, Ralph Bowen, Mornington Lockett, Michael Zilber, Eric Alexander, Steve Tavaglione or even other poppier guys like Tom Scott or Dave Sanborn.

See what I mean?

I can keep naming lots of people without even trying. And there are more.

Kenny G doesn't have a great tone but it is recognizable. That is something I suppose but I'm not sure how he's playing circles around tons of guys though.

And he's not remotely comparable to someone like Steve Vai who is a virtuoso, just not a jazz virtuoso.

[christianm77]

Excellent insight to taking a lesson with Pat Metheny (has been posted on another thread here). Some may not have listened to this before. Sound quality is sketchy...but listenable (not my fault). About 8 1/2 minutes in Metheny plays with drum machine to demonstrate rhythm to student.

I find it amusing the way he suggests practicing with drum machine. Proper 80s!