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Hi everyone,
I'm deep-diving into the mechanics of the Swing Feel and trying to solidify my understanding. I've gathered a few key points, but I want to make sure I'm locking down the correct concepts.
Here's my current understanding, please critique it:
- Time Feel: The foundation of Swing is the Triplet Feel (or Shuffle), meaning straight 8th notes will simply not swing, regardless of articulation.
- Solo Articulation: To make a solo line truly swing, the melodic accentuation must be placed on the Upbeats (the 'ands'—e.g., 2& / 4&).
- Groove Foundation: The emphasis on the Backbeat (specifically on the Downbeats of 2 and 4) is primarily the function of the Rhythm Section (drums, bass, comping instruments). This provides the pocket and the main rhythmic pulse, but it's not the primary articulation rule for the soloist. (I always thought the $2/4$ accent was the key, but I've learned that's likely the case for Rock/Pop.)
To test this, I've created a matrix of four recorded examples, mixing the Time Feel and the Articulation:
Recording # Time Feel Articulation Accents 1 Shuffle Onbeats (2 / 4) 2 Shuffle Upbeats (2& / 4&) 3 Straight 8th Onbeats (2 / 4) 4 Straight 8th Upbeats (2& / 4&)
Do you agree with my premise that Recordings 3 and 4 are completely disqualified from being true Swing because of the straight 8th time feel?
Is Recording 2 universally accepted as the definitive swing articulation for soloists?
1_shuffle + 2:4.mp3
2_shuffle + 2&:4&.mp3
3_straight + 2:4.mp3
4_straight + 2&:4&.mp3
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01-01-2026 08:06 AM
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what is your background? do you have much listening experience? any playing experience at all? because those premises do not make much sense and are not rooted in the reality of jazz music. so to answer your question, as a player i disagree with everything above. there is no universally accepted version of the swing articulation for soloists (and the divide between soloist and rhythm section makes no sense when it comes to swing feel). any kind of articulation, be it straight or dotted, on top or behind the beat has the potential to swing. or not.
to be a bit more constructive: imo swing feel, like most elements in folk music, needs to be copied. you cant reverse engineer it. once you got a real good understanding of the music you can try and reverse engineer specific players. but there are no general rules to be discovered. there is no uncharted territory, no intellectual conquests to be made. it's not that kind of hobby. the trick is doing it and doing it a lot.Last edited by djg; 01-01-2026 at 09:42 AM.
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Hi!
This is an excerpt from my book: "MELODIC IMPROVISATION FOR
JAZZ GUITAR"
".....The concept of Swing is not absolute, but very personal. Each Jazz performer has a unique and individual way of playing it, just as every person has a distinctive way of walking.
It is for this reason that the beginning student should dedicate ample time to listening to the Jazz greats from different eras and how they interpret Swing.
Furthermore, playing Swing depends on the tempo; it will be more evident while playing over slow or medium tempos, and less so when playing fast. For example, we can swing at 120 bpm. At 220 bpm and faster, however, we will be forced to play eighth note lines without a triplet feel.
Happy New Year!
Ettore
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A question that occurs to me:
How is it that a bassist, walking quarter notes by himself, can swing, or not?Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-01-2026 at 03:45 PM.
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^ Because different rhythms create swing, not only the silly adage that it's 8th notes with a triplet feel. Why do straight 16th notes add to swing?
To the OP: yes, uneven 8th notes and a backbeat create the backbone of swing, but it is really a flux of multiple different rhythms. What if the bassist only plays half notes or quarter notes? It adds to the ensemble's swing. The drummer and soloist will accent triplets or a triplet feel, but they will also play other rhythms against the grid like quarter note triplets, actual 8th note triplets, or 16th notes.Last edited by Strat-itis; 01-02-2026 at 02:01 AM.
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Swing is a feel, not a mathematical count. It's the cerebellum not the cerebral cortex.
Smarter minds than us have tried to figure out how to count and notate swing into the western music context, and I think it's not possible. People have talked about all the things you've talked about plus the dotted eighth note. People have talked about the clave as a component of swing, which is stereotypically associated with Brazilian/bossa nova but exists in many styles of music. In his recent autobiography, jazz drummer Billy Hart talked about binary versus ternary music (based on multiples of two or multiples of three is what I think he meant) and then multidimensional playing which combines and transcends both.
It exists as a push/pull against 4/4 time, especially. As John Coltrane said, "I've tried everything and nothing swings as hard as 4/4." As pointed out above, a bassist can swing a band into bad health just by playing quarter notes if they do it right. When you count with a swinging band, often the count comes out right on top of the beat and yet it swings like crazy and it feels like there is some elasticity there.
I think of it this way, which is probably not historically correct but it's how it feels to me: the swing feel is related to the swing of the hip when dancing. We step, swing, step, swing, step, swing, etc. What makes a dance sexy or the way someone walks sexy? The swing of their hip. But that sexy swing of the hip is not exactly on the two and four; there is a little delay, there's a little anticipation, there's just a little slide to the side which is what makes it sexy. What makes a great lover? The motion in the ocean, and that motion is swing.
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- Learn to feel the swing upbeats
- Learn to feel the half note triplet and the Bembe in 4/4 time
- Don’t try to articulate the swing (ie an unequal eighth) in your playing
- keep it smooth
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Saying that is a good way to annoy Brazilians! :-)
Originally Posted by Cunamara
Clave is a Cuban concept.
2-3 clave in particular does seem to line up with jazz phrasing.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 01-05-2026 at 07:47 AM.
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I've been working on comping with triplets for playing in a Guitar Duo (two guitars).
I've been playing this simple "Triplet Chord" exercise, rhythmically it's on the (And 1) and (and 3), but is it correct?. Please.
See exercise below:
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boooooooooom Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
and he drops the mic.
But for real -- this is the thing -- if swing is in the space between the eighth notes, then a walking bass line shouldn't swing. And, of course, a great walking bass swings more than anything on planet earth.
There's some interesting stuff in the length of the notes and that sort of thing, but still.
I think it's the Ken Burns thing where Wynton says something along the lines of "if you can't swing a quarter note, you can't swing."
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Thank you all for your responses.
I strongly agree that Swing is ultimately a feel, it is a body rhythm, not a mathematical formula that can be precisely calculated. This has brought my understanding of Swing back to the essentials.
I can certainly feel the strong sense of Swing when a good bassist plays quarter notes, and I used to feel that sense naturally myself. My confusion primarily came from getting too lost in the often contradictory theoretical discussions on YouTube over the past few years, which made me doubt whether my original, listening-based sense of Swing was correct.
Thank you for your advice. It has helped me realize that I need to stop this purely theoretical deconstruction and return to the correct path of intensive listening, copying, and internalization.
Thank you for helping me trust my instinctual feeling again.
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It should be both felt intuitively and deconstructed theoretically if you want to best understand it. Not only one or the other. Same as all topics in music unless one is a genius, which noone here is. Originally Posted by Peng1026
Swing is:
1. A pulse
2. The uneven 8th notes and backbeat like you said
3. Further flux in the ensemble to make it pop off better
That's about it, not that complicated. Just not solely #2.
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The bouncy feel on 1 2 3 4 in the body is where it all starts. When solo, you got to have the imaginary bass thump going on.
Otherwise the presentation of the rest is the theoretical kind.
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I think it’s very interesting how many conversations come up about swing. It’s tough to nail down exactly what good swing feel is when you realize you’re not capable of swinging. Equally as interesting is that some experienced players that can swing even have a hard time articulating what good swing feel is and often just describe it as “a feeling”. I guess good playing doesn’t always mean you’re good at explaining or teaching things. In the context of the beat I can hear swing in one of Grant Green’s signature moves where he “hammers on” a major 2nd or sometimes a minor 3rd. He does this A LOT in his playing and in just these two notes alone, in my opinion swing can be heard. Grant displays heavy yet EASY to hear swing throughout his playing that can be easily internalized by the listener. I think guitar players having a difficult time hearing and internalizing swing would do themselves a solid in listening to Grant consistently.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Beats_and_Guitars; 03-16-2026 at 09:19 PM.
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My instincts tell me that if someone needs to get this analytical and pedantic about swing feel, they'll never get it. To me it's like trying to explain humor or comedic timing playing the blues with emotional phrasing or dancing with rhythm: You either have it or you don't. Originally Posted by Peng1026
Does anyone else feel this way?
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I feel like anything related to music should be able to be explained. Whether or not someone is capable of explaining it is a different conversation I guess. Originally Posted by acoustic_archtop
To piggyback on the dancing analogy…learning to Cha-Cha starts with a set of instructions that are rigid. Once the rigid structure is repeated enough feeling, groove and playful expression within the context of the Cha-Cha may come afterwards. I feel that swing can be explained with a rigid structure as well. Groove, feeling and self expression can come after understanding the structure.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Beats_and_Guitars; 03-17-2026 at 10:43 AM.
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The people who devised and practiced "swing" did so with their bodies. And those behaviors, whether in dance or song or musical practice, can be observed and analyzed and described and turned into a set of suggestions or even rules. I've observed that process in the expanded gypsy jazz subculture as non-Roma worked on getting la pompe down. Michael Horowitz studied with GJ masters and produced Gypsy Rhythm, a comprehensive guide to the elements of that sound, including its characteristic pulse. It has been very influential--and yet I still hear a lot of stiff, mechanical rhythm playing in GJ jam circles from players who seem to take their technique from the book more than from their ears and their bodies. (And as I looked at the demographic of these GJ enthusiasts, I wondered how many of them included dancing in their adolescent socializing/courting experience. Couple dancing seemed to vanish from teenage social behavior about a decade behind me--my 71-year-old brother never danced.)
BTW, Beats: I recall watching a dance teacher trying to get a class to get salsa right. The women were doing OK, but the guys were painfully stiff. No rule-set was going to loosen them up--they were not comfortable enough in their bodies. And I sympathized--it's hard for a middle-aged WASP to get down.
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Haha! I can totally visualize that! Yeah I guess groove and feeling isn’t always guaranteed. Though “old man groove” can be quite entertaining to watch …I should know, my old man groove is hilarious to watch Originally Posted by RLetson
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Reverse engineering something and being able too break it down and explain what's going one is one thing. (why would anyone want to do that??) Originally Posted by Beats_and_Guitars
But, going the other way doesn't make sense. If someone can't 'feel' the swing, reading a book about it won't help.
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When you say “it won’t help” are you speaking for all guitar players collectively or just yourself? We don’t all learn the same way. Speaking of learning …I believe things can be taught but not everyone will learn from a specific teaching. I guess I just disagree that swing can’t be explained and illustrated. Originally Posted by acoustic_archtop
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I'm speaking for everyone. I don't think you can learn to swing from reading anything. I think it's internal. It's having rhythm. Either you have it or you don't. Originally Posted by Beats_and_Guitars
You're still not understanding. You say, "I guess I just disagree that swing can’t be explained and illustrated." Of course it can. I agree. Anything can be dissected, broken down, illustrated, explained etc.
I'm saying even if you had that explanation, you couldn't give it to someone that doesn't have a sense of rhythm and teach them to swing. You just can't.
Just like you can't teach someone to be funny, or have a sense of style, etc. It's not just a technique that you learn and execute. It's an innate sense.
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Originally Posted by acoustic_archtop
I think that's a good qualified premise compared to only saying rhythm is just purely innate. Because you have to be able to feel the swing for it to work. But having it taught effectively can spark that and allow you to feel it. It can be much more difficult without the proper explanation. As everyone knows there's no codified definition of swing. Which I think is extremely destructive since it's more complex than a single variable, but it can absolutely be explained. Originally Posted by acoustic_archtop
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Someone “being Funny” and someone having “a sense of style” are both subjective. Swing is not subjective. Originally Posted by acoustic_archtop
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I've watched a succession of teachers coach students toward producing swing rhythm, and it's clear to me that "try doing this" and "don't do that" and demonstrating various physical left- and right-hand techniques will take one only so far. At some point, the student has to connect and integrate those bits of advice to match whatever they hear/feel when they want to swing.
It's not unlike learning to dance. I'm old enough to remember the Arthur Murray-style diagrams outlining the steps--
That tells you where to put your feet, but it doesn't exhaust the elements of decent couple dancing. Not even this does:
There's a point at which all that stuff gets internalized and hooked together and, hey, you're dancing!
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