Quarter-Note Triplets are *critical* in jazz.

[brent.h]

(long post)

The moderator in this video, Ricky Riccardi, presents a rare, unheard, restored recording of Pops playing on the tune 'Them There Eyes' (32:35). Following which, the musicians discuss Pop's playing, and towards the end of the discussion (42:50 to 44:28), Wynton Marsalis says some interesting things about the odd note-values and even note-values. Talks about how Bird, Pops, Billie were all able to straddle these two sets of note-values. Mentions quarter-note triplets and even half-note triplets.

Watch the entire thing if you can. Great video, discussion, and stories.

-------------------------------------------------

Interview with Wynton Marsalis (Part 1) | DO THE M@TH

Iverson: It seems to me that there is an academy of rhythm in jazz and American music. One thing I’ve felt more and more as I’ve gotten older is that people don’t understand the basic question, “What is jazz rhythm?” Or: “What is this music that comes from the African Diaspora?” Congo Square is a very explicit message about this academy.

Marsalis: Mm-hmm. Well, it’s all of the musics that have a rhythm that’s a combination of 4 and 3. They are related technically. It all comes from that kind of African mother clave, then our shuffle is added in.

The 3 rhythm is small and the 4 rhythm is big rhythm in the jazz language. Whereas in the African music, the 3 rhythm is the big rhythm that you hear. The 4 rhythm is the background rhythm. (Well, it’s a 6 but you know what I mean.) When they are playing they are hearing both of the times, and they are playing both of the times. But they swing in the lower time.

Iverson: Barry Harris told me once that he thought Charlie Parker constantly played in 4 and 6 at the same time. That it was in there somewhere…

Marsalis: It’s in everybody’s music. Billie Holiday is the most pronounced one…

Iverson: Oh, you think so?

Marsalis: Well, that I’ve heard of the jazz musicians. If we put on a Billie Holiday record and we tap quarter note triplets, a lot of her phrasing will line exactly up with those triplets. Put her music on and tap out a quarter note triplet. She’s always in that quarter note time. “Sailboat in the moonlight with you…”

With our music it’s more playing against the ground rhythm. We set the ground rhythm up and we play with the rhythms in the context of the ground rhythm. Monk is a great example of that. Or for today, Marcus Roberts. They both set up the ground rhythm and play a lot of really inventive rhythms that will resolve in the context of the ground rhythm. And this is like African music with the exception of the fact that African musicians are playing in the two times at once. In our music it’s kind of over here in the lower of the 4 time. We’re playing in the upper three – if you got to be technical about it – we’re not hearing it like that of course. But we’re super-imposing all these rhythms and melodies on top of it and trying to resolve them with a certain type of feeling in time.

-------------------------------------------------

Here are some interesting older threads I found:

Improving Rhythm Basics

matt.guitarteacher: ... "Anyway, 8ths and 16ths aren't really the "currency" of jazz as much as triplets are. So, I'd spend some serious time with triplets and all associated polyrhythms of them. Listen, listen, listen to recordings for sure, but also learn how to count them like a legit musician. You really can't know what you're hearing on recordings if you don't do some real work towards learning to count as well. The rhythms are too complex and too far removed from traditional western rhythmic structures. In the beginning, most of us, hear jazz rhythms as variations of basic swing 8th rhythms, while they're actually more often like variations of 8th and quarter note triplet rhythms (and their double-time counterparts). At higher tempos these are feels which are uncountable, but at slower speeds you can hear more of what's going on. Speaking of which...

I really like the blues influence in the above mentioned artists. I would especially check out the really slow blues stuff where you can really hear more subdivisions of the beat. Hearing slow blues as 12/8 rather than simple swing with occasional triplet is the beginning of understanding swing at a deeper level."...

-------------------------------------------------

rubato...what is it really ??? - Page 2

matt.guitarteacher: ... "Subbing 'triplet time' for regular eighth-note-based time you get these phenomena:

1. Eighth note triplets 'rush' 8th notes: 12 fit in a bar instead of eight. So, if you sub them for eighth notes you end up 'ahead'.

2. Quarter-note triplets 'drag' eighth notes: Six per measure means that they are somewhere between quarter note and eighth notes which would be four and eight per measure respectively. Sounds like lazy blues phrasing of eighth notes, 'behind' the beat. Billie and Lester live here. This is also where Louis Armstrong made his name as a singer.

3. Quarter-note triplets 'rush' quarter notes: Again, because there are six-per-bar instead of four, you end up 'ahead', assuming you're starting in the same place.

Too many words really. That's not really the way you learn it, but it's worth beginning the conversation probably.

One very basic jazz phrasing feel, which you will hear from the likes of Billie holiday or Louis Armstrong is to sub triplets for straight time in phrasing basic phrases. Because triplets generally 'rush', they'll start a hair late and then be "ahead" by the end of it.

For example, if you have three quarter notes as a starting point, you would very often sub that for quarter-note triplets to jazz it up. The first quarter- note triplet begins on the eighth note triplet AFTER the beat. As a result, the next quarter-note triplet lands ON the beat and the third is AHEAD of the beat by one eighth note triplet. The result is very loose feel which doesn't necessarily feel ahead or behind because it is neither and both. Because the basis is not actually in normal eighth note subdivisions and Western musical feels, people will begin to talk about this kind of rhythmic feel in a very mystical way, as if it's magic, but it's actually a very different basis in time.

It's probably a couple of years of solid work to really learn to hear it well, even at this basic level, butit's the most important thing about playing music in my opinion. Everything else is just notes. Louis Armstrong didn't sound great and make everyone else sound cheesy by singing MORE notes. It was usually LESS, but with a great time feel."

-------------------------------------------------

To my ears, one guitarist who constantly plays with that Billie Holiday, quarter-note triplet time is Ed Cherry. (To me, this quarter-note triplet time, 6 against 4, is also "The Sound/Feeling of The Blues" that I've mentioned elsewhere.) Check out Ed playing with this time feel with Frank Vignola and Pasquale Grasso on Guitar Night. He never seems to be in a rush to play anything or go anywhere, but everything just sounds so greasy, blues-y, and magical all the time.

I'm not going to list every timestamp a QNT happens, but here are a few super tasteful ones from his first solo:
2:05, 2:14, 2:22, 2:31, 2:36

[GuyBoden]

Good stuff, you should start a "Subbing 'triplet time' for regular eighth-note-based time" [Study Group].

With examples we can practice.

[brent.h]

Good stuff, you should start a "Subbing 'triplet time' for regular eighth-note-based time" [Study Group].

With examples we can practice.

Perhaps.

matt.guitarteacher: ..."For example, if you have three quarter notes as a starting point, you would very often sub that for quarter-note triplets to jazz it up. The first quarter- note triplet begins on the eighth note triplet AFTER the beat. As a result, the next quarter-note triplet lands ON the beat and the third is AHEAD of the beat by one eighth note triplet. The result is very loose feel which doesn't necessarily feel ahead or behind because it is neither and both. Because the basis is not actually in normal eighth note subdivisions and Western musical feels, people will begin to talk about this kind of rhythmic feel in a very mystical way, as if it's magic, but it's actually a very different basis in time."

This bit/example might be confusing to some, but I think Matt's example sounds like the 2nd half of the bembe rhythm.

[GuyBoden]

Perhaps.



This bit/example might be confusing to some, but I think Matt's example sounds like the 2nd half of the bembe rhythm.

To me, it seems difficult to notate these 'Bembe' rhythms against a 4 beat rhythm. Maybe, two stave notation would clarify things or it probably needs to be heard.

[Christian Miller]

To me, it seems difficult to notate these 'Bembe' rhythms against a 4 beat rhythm. Maybe, two stave notation would clarify things or it probably needs to be heard.

It works OK in 12/8? 12/8 is a four beat time signature. It's probably more unfamiliarity - The beaming should give you a clue as to the downbeats.

[djg]

this is as triplety as it gets. grant's melody is so precise on the 12/8 grid, it is uncanny.

[Christian Miller]

Perhaps.



This bit/example might be confusing to some, but I think Matt's example sounds like the 2nd half of the bembe rhythm.

Bembe is like a 6/8 bar of triplet and one 6/8 bar of displaced triplet glued together.

Notice that it lines up on four, and we also have the and of four.

[brent.h]

this is as triplety as it gets. grant's melody is so precise on the 12/8 grid, it is uncanny.

At some points, I could hear Louis Armstrong in the playing.

Bembe is like a 6/8 bar of triplet and one 6/8 bar of displaced triplet glued together.

Notice that it lines up on four, and we also have the and of four.

Yeah I noticed. The reverse of this rhythm (play the 2nd half then the 1st half) is quite interesting.

[GuyBoden]

6/8 reminds me of the Irish Jigs I've heard all my life, my wife is Irish:

You don't need to go far to hear this 6/8 rhythm, just go to your local Irish Club.

[PMB]

[brent.h]

You don't need to go far to hear this 6/8 rhythm

Lol, i know..

but it's more about how we try to hear and play both at the same time.. that's the challenge as wynton marsalis said

[PMB]

This is how Jonathan Kreisberg teaches hearing/feeling quarter note triplets against straight quarter notes in 4/4 (you may prefer to count "One + a" for the triplets):

[brent.h]

This is how Jonathan Kreisberg teaches hearing/feeling quarter note triplets against straight quarter notes in 4/4 (you may prefer to count "One + a" for the triplets):

Nice. Myself, I'm always tapping my foot on 1 and 3 during practice/play. So if I just count out a triplet on each foot tap, I immediately lock in with the 6 against 4 grid.

[GuyBoden]

I've created my own 'Bembe' rhythm play-a-long, the bass notes on four beats is making it easier:

[rpjazzguitar]

I find it easier to think like this.

XOO XOO XOO XOO. Each letter, X and O, is part of an eighth note triplet.

So each of the four downbeats can be seen as the first note of an 8th note triplet. (Often, this will be felt as 12/8, although that's not central to the point I'm trying to make).

12 notes can also be divided into three or six equal parts. Let's try 6.

Each X and O is still part of a triplet. But now we're accenting different parts of the four triplets comprising the 12 beats.

We get: XOX OXO XOX OXO. So, that's 6 over 4.

It may help to notice that this is alternating Xs and Os. Also that beats 1&2 are the same as beats 3&4.

For three equal parts you get XOO OXO OOX OOO. That's 3 over 4.

Well, this way of thinking seemed simpler before I wrote it down. Basically, I find it easier when the notation shows every beat of the fundamental pulse rather than a mix of eighths and quarters with ties.

[brent.h]

Ok, so I played this tune at 75% on YT, and used my fingers to drum 12/8 time.


Discovered that many of her phrases start on:

- the second eighth-note triplet of the beat or

- the third eighth-note triplet of the beat (this is also the 2nd quarter-note triplet across 2 quarter notes)


It is ridiculously exact. Try it out yourself!

[brent.h]

I find it easier to think like this.

XOO XOO XOO XOO. Each letter, X and O, is part of an eighth note triplet.

So each of the four downbeats can be seen as the first note of an 8th note triplet. (Often, this will be felt as 12/8, although that's not central to the point I'm trying to make).

12 notes can also be divided into three or six equal parts. Let's try 6.

Each X and O is still part of a triplet. But now we're accenting different parts of the four triplets comprising the 12 beats.

We get: XOX OXO XOX OXO. So, that's 6 over 4.

It may help to notice that this is alternating Xs and Os. Also that beats 1&2 are the same as beats 3&4.

For three equal parts you get XOO OXO OOX OOO. That's 3 over 4.

Well, this way of thinking seemed simpler before I wrote it down. Basically, I find it easier when the notation shows every beat of the fundamental pulse rather than a mix of eighths and quarters with ties.

These half-note triplet variations sound great:

OXO OOX OOO XOO

OOX OOO XOO OXO

OOO XOO OXO OOX

Quite fun counting and feeling them

[RyanM]

This is the basis for Mike Longo’s course, which he got directly from Dizzy as his piano player. He also says you need the half note triplet, and also off beat triplets

[brent.h]

Ari Alexander (vocalist wife of guitarist Cecil Alexander) transcribes 'Mean to Me' by Billie Holiday.

[charlieparker]

Ari Alexander (vocalist wife of guitarist Cecil Alexander) transcribes 'Mean to Me' by Billie Holiday.

What a tune!

[brent.h]

yeah these tunes were amazing... shame that they didnt become as popular as the big ones we know