Metronome - 2 and 4 vs 1 and 3

[sgosnell]

I thought everyone knew about the CC transcriptions. I downloaded them 25 or 30 years ago.

[pauln]

When the band leader just snaps his fingers into the song,
it's 1 and 3 or 2 and 4, or do you guess, hoping not wrong?

[rpjazzguitar]

I wonder if foot tapping has been the subject of solid research.

If you look at the players in a horn section, some tap, some don't. Among the tappers you will see different patterns, even different numbers of feet in involved.

So, it occurs to to ask, do the better players tend to tap in similar ways? Or does it not really matter?

[Hep To The Jive]

I wonder if foot tapping has been the subject of solid research.

If you look at the players in a horn section, some tap, some don't. Among the tappers you will see different patterns, even different numbers of feet in involved.

So, it occurs to to ask, do the better players tend to tap in similar ways? Or does it not really matter?

Foot tapping could be a curse. In my early youth i had a band with a singer who was not very good, but he tapped a lot maybe because he was nervous. When we tried to record a song in my appartment he tapped so much the neighbours from downstairs came to complain. It was out of time too.

But I saw some sax players do it graciously. I prefer just move my body slightly, it happens naturally, i don't know on what beat. When i play some rocking music i move and tap a lot actually.

[Cunamara]

I saw an interview with Jonathan Stout where he mentioned that early jazz is '1 and 3' music.

Starts at minute 29:19

For a long time, I assumed that in jazz, you have to set the metronome on 2 and 4 when practicing. However, after trying to practice Rhythm Changes at 250 bpm, I reconsidered this because it feels so difficult and awkward. Practicing swing at higher tempos with the metronome on 1 and 3 feels much easier and more natural. What do you think?

Depends on your technique. Playing with my fingers, comping fast fast tempos is easy: thumb on 1&3, fingers on 2&4. With a pick, it's harder for me to play steady and in time at say 300 bpm as downstrokes generally sound better for chords. I start hitting 2&4 at those tempos. Something to work on.

[AllanAllen]

Depends on your technique. Playing with my fingers, comping fast fast tempos is easy: thumb on 1&3, fingers on 2&4. With a pick, it's harder for me to play steady and in time at say 300 bpm as downstrokes generally sound better for chords. I start hitting 2&4 at those tempos. Something to work on.

You’re comping four to a bar at 300bpm? I don’t think you need to do that.

[MarkRhodes]

I was reading a Carol Kaye post today in which she recounted being told by drummer Earl Palmer that she played great but was rushing a bit. Rushing? This charge stunned her. But she listened again to some of the sessions they had done and decided he was right. (This was when she realized that timing for bassists is not the same as for guitarists----she began her studio career as a guitar player.)

She went home and practiced with a metronome on 2 and 4 for a couple days and that was that.

[pamosmusic]

Then there’s Hal Galper who says people tend to rush moderate tempos and lock up when the tempo gets to high and his solution is 1 and 3.

[Christian Miller]

Yep I agree with all of that. Definitely the things I have to be aware of.


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[pamosmusic]

I don't think there's really a correct way to feel the time.

I think Hal is kind of objectively right that you just can't play those fast tempos when you're feeling the time in four, and having a looser more flexible time feel is also a fringe benefit of doing the same thing at more moderate tempos.

But Dan Wilson says the exact same thing ----- while his metronome is clicking 2 and 4 at 300bpm.

2 and 4 gives you the high hat thing.

Setting the metronome on 1 is a huge test of your time keeping ability.

Setting it just on beat 4 is also a huge test and gives you the New Orleans Big Four that you hear in so much blues and jazz stuff.

Setting the clave on the Drum Genius metronome is also awesome.

Playing long with Tony Williams's Dolphin Dance groove on that app is its own weird thing.

So all of the above at various times and for various purposes is probably the correct answer.

[AllanAllen]

So all of the above at various times and for various purposes is probably the correct answer.

BOOOOOO!!!! Down with well rounded practice, up with one weird trick!! Everyone say it with me! ONE WEIRD TRICK! ONE WEIRD TRICK!

[Hep To The Jive]

BOOOOOO!!!! Down with well rounded practice, up with one weird trick!! Everyone say it with me! ONE WEIRD TRICK! ONE WEIRD TRICK!

Right! Don't complicate things with 'all of the above' approach! Switch from playing to 2 and 4 to 1 and 3 (or vice versa), and watch your timing transforms into a world class swing player! It was the missing secret you've been searching for!

[bediles]

2 and 4 to feel the groove of swing. 1 and 3 at faster tempos or just one to feel the bigger beats.

[Christian Miller]

Meanwhile Jeff Berlin's been posting about how unnecessary metronome practice is....

"....Few to no metronome user explained how their time improved, only that it did. Many stated that it is a tool, but none seemed to agree on what this tool does.

The internet is a hodge-podge of opinions, statements of beliefs, (supposed) eye witness testimony, and a lot of musical avoidance. Most (not all) posters are self-taught and lack a musical background to base their opinions on. Thus, belief is a powerful thing. I'd like to stand for more than opinion if it might help people to think a little deeper about their musical improvement. People are important!"


I have some sympathy for this view although I don't think I quite agree with Jeff. OTOH, who cares what I think?

So, if you are looking for consistency of advice, I have bad news.

[Christian Miller]

Then there’s Hal Galper who says people tend to rush moderate tempos and lock up when the tempo gets to high and his solution is 1 and 3.

I don't think I've ever seen the thing were Hal Galper says set your metronome to 1 and 3? Where does he say that, is it in Forward Motion (Quite possible I missed it, I tend to skim books.)

I have heard him talk about patting your foot on 1 and 3 and feeling the music in half time, which is also what Barry Harris recommended. (Barry had no recommendations see the metronome as he'd never used one.)

[pamosmusic]

I don't think I've ever seen the thing were Hal Galper says set your metronome to 1 and 3? Where does he say that, is it in Forward Motion (Quite possible I missed it, I tend to skim books.)

I have heard him talk about patting your foot on 1 and 3 and feeling the music in half time, which is also what Barry Harris recommended. (Barry had no recommendations see the metronome as he'd never used one.)

Yeah forward motion. No idea if he mentioned the metronome specifically, but feeling the music in two (beats one and three) was forward motion.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah forward motion. No idea if he mentioned the metronome specifically, but feeling the music in two (beats one and three) was forward motion.

Now I think of it I'm not 100% sure Hal Galper recommends metronome practice at all, or at least I've never heard him discuss it. He likes Mike Longo's approach IIRC and Mike was strictly anti metronome. So, dunno.

What I do know is that Barry Harris said that the 1 and 3 are about the lower body and the 2 and 4 are about the upper body. Since then I've tended to approach things from the perspective of always feeling the basic meter (4/4 or 2/2) in my lower body and having the metronome set on whatever, 2 and 4, or the and of 4 for instance.

I think patting your foot is a good way into this. Barry said you should always pat your foot. A dancer shifts their weight on 1 and 3. You could also practice playing while stepping in time I guess haha (that was another thread, no?)

[Hep To The Jive]

Here's a revolutionary idea: practice with metronome on 1 2 3 4! What can go wrong? Nah, I know, it's probably illegal.

[Reg]

I think if your working on your time thing... do whatever makes you get your internal time or metronome together.

Don't become a Time follower... really.

Personally it's more about the feel, what is the rhythmic feel or phrasing of the feel. Is it a bar, two, four etc.

More attacks of mechanical beats... tend to create less feel. Personally, 1 and 3 is different feel from 2 and 4.

I mean your going to subdivide at some point... What are the rhythmic targets and how are they organized.

I liked Christians point of the + of beat 4 or even better the + of beat 4 on every other bar, keep going.

I guess the point is to have Rhythmic Targets... and set them up.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah anything that stretches your ability to lock it down. I find with all this stuff that it works fine until I start playing the guitar. That thing is SUCH a distraction.

How many ways do I need to be reminded to only play things I actually KNOW?

That’s the value of the metronome. I'm not sure how much it has to do with time and how much it's about the NaTuRe oF tHe MiNd.

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[emanresu]

Here's a revolutionary idea: practice with metronome on 1 2 3 4! What can go wrong? Nah, I know, it's probably illegal.

Nothing wrong with it.. except 1 2 3 4 should be played by a sweet bass drum. Get the inner bounce happening.

[Hep To The Jive]

Nothing wrong with it.. except 1 2 3 4 should be played by a sweet bass drum. Get the inner bounce happening.

Good for practicing your 16th notes! If you also imagine a snare on 2 and 4 you got your disco beat. Does anyone practice disco anymore, or anything funky really? If you can't do that Corey Wong thing locking in at least at medium 110 bpm or something you're probably don't have too much work as a guitar player these days...

[AllanAllen]

Good for practicing your 16th notes! If you also imagine a snare on 2 and 4 you got your disco beat. Does anyone practice disco anymore, or anything funky really? If you can't do that Corey Wong thing locking in at least at medium 110 bpm or something you're probably don't have too much work as a guitar player these days...

I have plenty of work playing only jazz. 4 gigs in February. The gigs are there if you look for them. Sure, I’m not playing the Green Mill, but I’m playing a pizza place down the street from it.

[emanresu]

swingy!

[Hep To The Jive]

I have plenty of work playing only jazz. 4 gigs in February. The gigs are there if you look for them. Sure, I’m not playing the Green Mill, but I’m playing a pizza place down the street from it.

4 gigs you mean for the whole month?? You're joking! My jazz gigs maybe only 10% of my whole income. Maybe due to my postioning myself only as a swing player. I really have no interest to play contemporary jazz, nor talent for that matter.

Even though, my last swing band show the leader had a good sense of humour, when asked what's for the 3rd set, he said Giant Steps in 7/8 in all 12 keys. We thought he was joking... Turned out he wasn't, and the most amazing thing was watching the dancers trying to make sense of it all.