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07-25-2023 01:01 PM
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As someone who grew up listening to Johann Sebastian Bach this sounds simply horrible to me. The phrases fall totally apart.
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Too bad…to me it sounds absolutely beautiful. It is his own interpretation for the electric guitar. I know the classic violin partita sounds different.
Originally Posted by Bop Head
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In 1971 when I was 16 years old I was driving my first car a 1960 ford falcon along the lakeside road in Jackson point lake Simcoe Ontario Canada with my Buddy Tom Sawyer
( his real Name ) about to light up a crawdad when we saw a fellow hitch hiking with a guitar so we pulled over and let him in. He was wearing a floppy hat and a poncho and I noticed he was carrying a Martin guitar.
Being a guitar player my self since I was nine and playing in a band since age ten I commented on the guitar saying “ Martin wow that’s a nice guitar”and the fellow said “yea it was my dad’s “
“oh he must be a professional “ I said
“ Yea “ he said
“ what is his name “ I said
something Breau he said
“what is your name “ I said
“ Lenny Breau” he said
“ No way” I said since I was vaguely familiar with his music and we proceeded to light up our crawdad and had a great conversation.
He was coming from a party on an island in lake Simcoe and got stranded there and needed to get down to a clinic on Charles st and Yonge for his methadone treatment
and he did seem to need it so we drove him strait there much to his delight
Saw him a couple of times after that at concerts he was playing
Sorry we lost Him
Gello
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I raise you this, which I think is a well-considered interpretation of Bach's Chaconne.
<mini rant>Why do so many, mostly American, guitarists post their attempts at playing Bach on an electric? Is it because of some perceived cultural value, or just because Bach sounds kind of okay on any instrument? If they want to show that they can play classical guitar music on an electric, why not go for real guitar music and play Villa-Lobos' Etudes? Too challenging, probably.</mini rant>Last edited by docsteve; 07-26-2023 at 08:22 AM.
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It is my understanding that Noel's version is based on an exercise Jim Hall would have his students (including one Bill Frisell) do=arrange the violin sonatas and partitas for solo guitar (sustaining notes when possible etc.), instead of playing them as single note lines
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To me it’s an individual interpretation. He’s not emulating a violin or something like that.
Playing with sustaining (unfretted) notes is a common technique that creates beautiful voicings, sometimes dissonances, all in all a very complex tone. Julian Lage is a master in this technique for example. I really dig it.Last edited by Stefan Eff; 07-27-2023 at 01:59 AM.
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Agreed on all points, but the result sounds like a rock / blues player with unusual note choices. Originally Posted by Stefan Eff
When I listen to arrangements of classical music for other instruments, one of the questions is always "what does it add to the music?"
IMHO it is a waste to use a musical masterpiece as nothing more than an etude. As I wrote, there are plenty of musically challenging guitar etudes out there (Villa-Lobos, Brouwer...), so why not use these?
BTW I'm fine with arranging a given piece for pure enjoyment. In case of lute music, a guitar arrangement is the only way to make the piece heard at all, given the scarcity of lutenists.
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Because Bach wrote great notes that work well on any instrument?
it does seem to be a thing about Americans haha. But I’d post a little Bach if I thought I’d done a decent job, why not?
I don’t think I’d find any etude for polyphonic technique, hybrid picking and left hand stretches that would be as musically satisfying and challenging as playing a two part invention on the guitar at (mostly) written pitch - which is not really possible on classical guitar - but whether or not I post this to the public is another thing. At the moment I can play it, just about. I’m not sure it would be pleasant to listen to.
Several jazz guitarists have posted their recordings. Tbf they are treated much as etudes, but then it’s just blinking hard to play them. Not so much with the solo string music.
Re villa lobos I perhaps unfairly feel his music is intimately connected with the specific technique of classical guitar. Would it work on electric well? (Also classical guitar music does not take advantage of the extended range of the instrument.)
Bach more importantly serves as a model of counterpoint and harmony for study. I think this is an appeal of his music for jazz players. I’m sure VL has lessons to teach here as well.
EDIT: I really like that version of the Chaconne you posted. Very cool reimagining.Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-27-2023 at 07:12 AM.
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afaik it is now understood that Bach’s ‘lute suites’ were never really composed for lute. Originally Posted by docsteve
That said he didn’t write any music for piano either. I’m happy to listen to pianists play Bach though (not everyone agrees haha.)
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Hmmm…let the music speak for itself instead of seeing everything so strictly?
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Sure, when it works.
Actually, I did enjoy the music, I just don't think it sounds much like Bach.
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A scarcity of lutenists?? Maybe there indeed are even less of them then there are jazz guitarists, but I'd say that's a good thing. Less work to stay informed if there's really yet another unmissable recording of the same-old repertoire
It's always been known that at least a part of them are rearrangements, presumably by Bach himself. I'm not familiar enough with this (or the instrument, curiously, as I do prefer it over guitar) but I do like to think that the "bundle" consists of arrangements he intended for "the" lute. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Anyway, if you're going to be playing Bach on an instrument he didn't write for I find it vastly preferable to do it on a contemporary instrument and exploiting that instrument's character. That's what he would do himself, I think we can be sure of that *). There are a few YT recordings of his music played on a steel-body resonator that I quite liked.
NB: the classical guitar and piano are not contemporary instruments in my eyes, not even those custom-made multi-string guitarstraptions, or pianos producing moaning noises O:-)
*) I do see him a bit more as someone who'd have been thrilled by the early room-filling synthesizers rather than the current-day digital versions that could fit in a pillbox...
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I only use my ears and my heart listening to music (and my fingers while playing music ;-) The fastest guitar solo leaves me totally bored if it doesn’t touch my heart.
Noel Johnstons „Etude of Bachs Partita“ touches me and I‘m kneedeep in his voicings. That’s enough for me.
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A lot of digital technology is employed to mimic analog instruments as closely as possible Originally Posted by RJVB
A scarcity of lutenists?? Maybe there indeed are even less of them then there are jazz guitarists, but I'd say that's a good thing. Less work to stay informed if there's really yet another unmissable recording of the same-old repertoire
It's always been known that at least a part of them are rearrangements, presumably by Bach himself. I'm not familiar enough with this (or the instrument, curiously, as I do prefer it over guitar) but I do like to think that the "bundle" consists of arrangements he intended for "the" lute.
Anyway, if you're going to be playing Bach on an instrument he didn't write for I find it vastly preferable to do it on a contemporary instrument and exploiting that instrument's character. That's what he would do himself, I think we can be sure of that *). There are a few YT recordings of his music played on a steel-body resonator that I quite liked.
NB: the classical guitar and piano are not contemporary instruments in my eyes, not even those custom-made multi-string guitarstraptions, or pianos producing moaning noises O:-)
*) I do see him a bit more as someone who'd have been thrilled by the early room-filling synthesizers rather than the current-day digital versions that could fit in a pillbox...
therefore +1 for the room-filling synths (and a honorable mention to Wendy Carlos).
Which brings us back to the question whether an electric guitar is appropriate for playing Bach... It's not the instrument that I have issues with. Regarding the playing, Stefan loves it, Bop Head hates it, and I like it but think it's not how I want to hear Bach played. Three great people, three great opinions
I'm working on playing classical music on an electric guitar anyhow, might as well give Bach a spin.
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I dunno. I have an old Julian Bream edition where he is adamant they were composed for the lute in the foreword. Maybe that’s just him, and his view didn’t reflect the academic consensus even back then. Originally Posted by RJVB
Me too. I think it’s interesting what people bring. I might not always like it, but it’s cool to check out.Anyway, if you're going to be playing Bach on an instrument he didn't write for I find it vastly preferable to do it on a contemporary instrument and exploiting that instrument's character. That's what he would do himself, I think we can be sure of that *). There are a few YT recordings of his music played on a steel-body resonator that I quite liked.
NB: the classical guitar and piano are not contemporary instruments in my eyes, not even those custom-made multi-string guitarstraptions, or pianos producing moaning noises O:-)
*) I do see him a bit more as someone who'd have been thrilled by the early room-filling synthesizers rather than the current-day digital versions that could fit in a pillbox...
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Guess I'll have to look her up. I was thinking of Patrick Cowley and Ultravox, 2 names I knew when I started to hear that kind of music (and synths had probably shrunk a bit already). Though Ultravox still worked with room-filling ones according to the notes from their 21st century get-back-together and doing almost everything on laptops. Originally Posted by docsteve
A lot of digital technology is employed to mimic analog instruments as closely as possible therefore +1 for the room-filling synths (and a honorable mention to Wendy Carlos).
Not all good musicians make good music-historians. I'm neither Originally Posted by Christian Miller
so I cannot exclude that the lute suite was there before the E major violin partita and what's that other piece in which the same notes appear (a cantata IIRC?)
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I’ve read lots of stuff about this and the consensus seems to be that most of them were probably written for the ‘lute-harpsichord’, a sort of harpsichord with gut strings which was supposed to sound like a lute (although the modern replicas I’ve heard just sound like a very dull harpsichord to me!). Anyway Bach owned a couple of them I believe, so it makes sense. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Some info (with sound clips) about the lute-harpsichord:
Lautenwerck - Wikipedia
Apparently most of the lute suites don’t fit well on the lute anyway, and are more playable on the guitar. So have at it on the guitar, I say.Last edited by grahambop; 07-27-2023 at 03:39 PM.
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I quite like the sound of the lautenwerck replicas I’ve heard. However IIRC no examples of the instrument survive so there’s a lot of guesswork involved.
Oh almost forgot, Bach didn’t write the cello suites for what we think of as a cello either
FFS Bach, sort it out mate.
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Just discovered this thread. I guess I'm late to the partita.
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Chaconne à son goût.
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As it happens I googled ‘Jim Hall Bach’ and this interesting article by Noel Johnston was the first result:
Jim Hall’s Classical Chord Melodies - Premier Guitar
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Interesting article.
i do enjoy the over ringing fingerings with open strings, actually my edition of the lute suites has many fingerings like this and I think they may be fashionable in classical guitar circles? Obviously in their case it depends what the harmony is doing. Sustaining the wrong notes may produce a non idiomatic effect. Otoh for jazzers this may be more a feature than a bug.
A lot of Bill Frissel ‘reverb pedal’ sound actually comes from employing bells fingerings like this. He sounded like he was using a reverb/delay pedal on an unplugged acoustic guitar according to Leni Stern. The technique is subtle…. I should get back to practicing that, it’s a road less travelled. So much to practice, so little time.
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