Noel Johnston

[RJVB]

Oh almost forgot, Bach didn’t write the cello suites for what we think of as a cello either

I think that's not the case for all of them.

My favourite version isn't on cello either...

i do enjoy the over ringing fingerings with open strings, actually my edition of the lute suites has many fingerings like this and I think they may be fashionable in classical guitar circles?

Maybe for this music and maybe there are schools about this, but "over ringing fingerings" are the opposite of fashionable where I get my lessons! No unwanted resonances!

[Stefan Eff]

As it happens I googled ‘Jim Hall Bach’ and this interesting article by Noel Johnston was the first result:

Jim Hall’s Classical Chord Melodies - Premier Guitar

Thanks much, very interesting. Noel is a nice guy and a fine teacher with a lot of knowledge.

[Christian Miller]

I think that's not the case for all of them.

My favourite version isn't on cello either...

Maybe for this music and maybe there are schools about this, but "over ringing fingerings" are the opposite of fashionable where I get my lessons! No unwanted resonances!

Not sure. I think lutenists don’t like them? They aren’t considered very ‘authentic’ historically because afaik no one actually played lute music like this. Not quite sure what the CG rationale is. There was a lot of this stuff in the Trinity Grade 8 Guitar rep in the lute repertoire.

this type of thing

i play it with these fingerings like the dirty dirty boy I am and think they sound great, are really satisfying to play and it’s lovely to turn a scale into an arpeggio from the perspective of the right hand, but I’m not really concerned with authenticity. Sounds a more like a harp than any kind of lute to me.

[docsteve]

A lot of Bill Frissel ‘reverb pedal’ sound actually comes from employing bells fingerings like this. He sounded like he was using a reverb/delay pedal on an unplugged acoustic guitar according to Leni Stern. The technique is subtle…. I should get back to practicing that, it’s a road less travelled. So much to practice, so little time.

That's true. I heard Frisell live once. He played one piece on a Martin dreadnaught without effects, and made it resonate as much as an electric with reverb.

[docsteve]

Not sure. I think lutenists don’t like them? They aren’t considered very ‘authentic’ historically because afaik no one actually played lute music like this. Not quite sure what the CG rationale is. There was a lot of this stuff in the Trinity Grade 8 Guitar rep in the lute repertoire.

this type of thing

i play it with these fingerings like the dirty dirty boy I am and think they sound great, are really satisfying to play and it’s lovely to turn a scale into an arpeggio from the perspective of the right hand, but I’m not really concerned with authenticity. Sounds a more like a harp than any kind of lute to me.

As far as I know (but what do I know?), advice for lutenists is generally "let it ring", but NOT when it comes to Bach. He spells out the duration of the notes, and you are supposed to hold them for their exact duration. Which is quite a feat in the D Minor Prelude BWV 999, with the bordun bass.

The guitar has more sustain than the lute, so judicious dampening is advised IMHO.

[RJVB]

As far as I know (but what do I know?), advice for lutenists is generally "let it ring", but NOT when it comes to Bach.

There's a lot of what I can only call religion around Bach (JS, evidently)... Enrico Gatti once said (during a masterclass IIRC) that the music of a composer like Vivaldi has been played so much "to death" that there ought to be a long (20y, IIRC) moratorium on playing it. If feel more or less the same about Bach, esp. the works for solo instruments other than harpsichord or organ. I'd much rather put a nicely done facsimile edition on a period-correct music stand, enjoy the calligraphy and ponder how nicely it could sound

I've had discussions about letting ring vs. damping with a friend who's a (rather down-to-earth) professional lutenist and early 19th C. guitar player. Her approach is very similar to how violinists approach the question: OK to let it ring if it sounds good, i.e. fits in the chord without masking a modulation or if it makes a welcome dissonance clearer.
She doesn't play baroque lute though, and AFAIK very little "high baroque" music.

[Christian Miller]

As far as I know (but what do I know?), advice for lutenists is generally "let it ring", but NOT when it comes to Bach. He spells out the duration of the notes, and you are supposed to hold them for their exact duration. Which is quite a feat in the D Minor Prelude BWV 999, with the bordun bass.

The guitar has more sustain than the lute, so judicious dampening is advised IMHO.

heh. It’s funny how much Bach is always the exception. He was a weird weird composer.

I think it also depends on the texture. Working on the two part inventions the important thing is to really have the lines clear and independent. It would be totally counterproductive to have overringing scales like in some of the Bach lute suite editions. But I’m not an editor or a musicologist, so I’ll content myself with exploring different fingerings and see if I like the effect it produces.

[Christian Miller]

There's a lot of what I can only call religion around Bach (JS, evidently)... Enrico Gatti once said (during a masterclass IIRC) that the music of a composer like Vivaldi has been played so much "to death" that there ought to be a long (20y, IIRC) moratorium on playing it. If feel more or less the same about Bach, esp. the works for solo instruments other than harpsichord or organ. I'd much rather put a nicely done facsimile edition on a period-correct music stand, enjoy the calligraphy and ponder how nicely it could sound

I've had discussions about letting ring vs. damping with a friend who's a (rather down-to-earth) professional lutenist and early 19th C. guitar player. Her approach is very similar to how violinists approach the question: OK to let it ring if it sounds good, i.e. fits in the chord without masking a modulation or if it makes a welcome dissonance clearer.
She doesn't play baroque lute though, and AFAIK very little "high baroque" music.

So essentially - exercise your musical awareness and sensibility and make artistic decisions like some kind of adult?

madness

[RJVB]

make artistic decisions like some kind of adult?

madness

With the emphasis on "kind of" because playing is something for your inner child

A bit of madness can't hurt either (and "madder than the rest" can help sell, sadly)

[docsteve]

As it happens I googled ‘Jim Hall Bach’ and this interesting article by Noel Johnston was the first result:

Jim Hall’s Classical Chord Melodies - Premier Guitar

I'll just quote one paragraph from the article:
"While you can go for the harmony Bach intended, it’s okay to expand on that. Extended chord voicings sound great, too, and will give it a more modern (jazz?) sound. Grab groups of notes together that sound good to you."



There is also this article by a different author on playing the Sarabande from BWV 995, an arrangement of the Cello Partita BWV 1011: Playing Bach’s BWV 995 Sarabande - Premier Guitar

He advocates much the same approach, namely to take advantage of the guitar as a harmony instrument to let the notes ring into each other. While I write this, I am listening to the recording of Cello Partita 1012 linked above - the cellist does just that, and also preserves the polyphony of the score.

[Christian Miller]

Anyway much of the discussion is centred around how to perform the music, which I think for musicians interested in composition and improvisation is kind of a secondary consideration.

Classical players don’t often have a relationship with the construction of music so this is irrelevant to them, and I actually think most of them would prefer the mental processes of any composer (such as Vivaldi, let alone Bach) remain mysterious and placed on an ivory tower.

I’ve never understood this, but I think it is kind of necessary to follow a career as a classical performer.

I think many classical people would find the attitude jazz musicians have to music in general to be rather grotesque and mad scientist like when applied to classical music. But we want to take it apart and see what we can learn, graft, mutate and repurpose.

It’s been interesting and fun learning about classical improvisers who share this mindset, albeit backed up with more cultural sensitivity for the music itself.

I think this informal musical construction (as opposed to formal composition) encourages a different relationship with any canon (pun not intended), be it Bach or Bird. It’s like you are constantly in discussion with the musicians of the past rather than having them tell you what to do. Given the idea of an artistic canon did not exist when they were living, it makes me think that gets closer to the spirit.

Play Bach in whatever way seems best to you.

[docsteve]

[QUOTE=Christian Miller;1278397]
Anyway much of the discussion is centred around how to perform the music, which I think for musicians interested in composition and improvisation is kind of a secondary consideration.[QUOTE]

I didn't know that musicians interested in improvisation are less interested in how to perform the music

Play Bach in whatever way seems best to you.

Amen

[Christian Miller]

With the emphasis on "kind of" because playing is something for your inner child

A bit of madness can't hurt either (and "madder than the rest" can help sell, sadly)

It’s worth remembering that Bach was kind of bonkers. He was going off on one with his music.

[Christian Miller]

[QUOTE=docsteve;1278401]

Anyway much of the discussion is centred around how to perform the music, which I think for musicians interested in composition and improvisation is kind of a secondary consideration.

I didn't know that musicians interested in improvisation are less interested in how to perform the music

Yes I think this is the case with jazz musicians. I don’t think the intention of Jim hall or Gilad Heckselman is to interpret Bach; it’s more to connect with Bach and to take things from the music to apply to their own. I don’t think the niceties of interpretation are that important to them.

In terms of being able to simply play the notes, Bach rewards this better than, say, Mozart.

You cam do both, or shift your area of interest, but I do think you have to prioritise one activity. (Otoh most classical improvisers already come from a background of performance of that music.)

[frabarmus]

[QUOTE=Christian Miller;1278431]

Yes I think this is the case with jazz musicians. I don’t think the intention of Jim hall or Gilad Heckselman is to interpret Bach; it’s more to connect with Bach and to take things from the music to apply to their own.

I'm writing this before reading all the posts that preceded mine. One of the most beautiful Bach inspired things I've ever heard was a long intro to a Standard (I don't even remember which one) by Joe Diorio. He was playing a gig at a Jazz club in my town (not talking about a recording, I was actually there in the audience). It was totally improvised and sounded like J.S. was "dictating" all the ideas (besides some hints at the Lauten Werke)... he started off with simple melodic lines and then developed them into contrapunctal discourse. J.S. the man would have loved it, I'm sure! (I certainly did)! J.S. really was/is universal and way ahead of his time...

[frabarmus]

As someone who grew up listening to Johann Sebastian Bach this sounds simply horrible to me. The phrases fall totally apart.

Honestly didn't like it, either... sounded a bit like "Bill Frisell plays Bach" or something. I might be too "conservative" (and, mind you, I do like Bill Frisell) but I much prefer someone like Nigel North playing Bach...

[frabarmus]

I raise you this, which I think is a well-considered interpretation of Bach's Chaconne.

<mini rant>Why do so many, mostly American, guitarists post their attempts at playing Bach on an electric? Is it because of some perceived cultural value, or just because Bach sounds kind of okay on any instrument? If they want to show that they can play classical guitar music on an electric, why not go for real guitar music and play Villa-Lobos' Etudes? Too challenging, probably.</mini rant>

Ok, this is electric guitar but it sounds (to me) almost like organ or hurdy gurdy (I mean: the beginning).

[pamosmusic]

Frankly the thing that bothers me about the OP is the electric guitar, up-down vibrato.



Classical nerd pet peeve.

As to the other parts of the discussion, I’d probably be happier if everyone played Bach exclusively all the time. So have it at.

[grahambop]

Classical guitar-type vibrato (i.e. along the string length) doesn’t seem to work very well with steel strings. At least that’s been my experience, it just doesn’t do much.

[pamosmusic]

Classical guitar-type vibrato (i.e. along the string length) doesn’t seem to work very well with steel strings. At least that’s been my experience, it just doesn’t do much.

oh man works great for me.

Flats probably not.

also I play a reasonably light string (11)

[Christian Miller]

A slow and subtle side to side vibrato can be really nice.

problem with bad rock vibrato is the thing starts off sharp half the time and goes from that position to sharper. That’s why the 70s rock masters often pre bend then vibrato - Brian May, Dave Gilmour etc. it’s almost like they are listening to what comes out the amp or something and have a sensitivity for intonation (and of course Brian’s intonation on those harmony parts is always spot on). Of course they got that from the Chicago blues players who also had all of the microtonal nuance.

Shredder vibrato is often quite underdeveloped, they just stick a wide vibrato on everything. It sounds good for a pulling out the stops metal solo, but not so good for other stuff. You only have so many hours in the day I guess. I don’t think that’s true of all shredders btw. Great players sweat the details.

That said, I don’t think that style of vibrato would work for Bach lol. But a little vibration is nice.

[pamosmusic]

A slow and subtle side to side vibrato can be really nice.

problem with bad rock vibrato is the thing starts off sharp half the time. That’s why the 70s rock masters often pre bend then vibrato - Brian May, Dave Gilmour etc. it’s almost like they are listening to what comes out the amp or something and have a sensitivity for intonation. Of course they got that from the Chicago blues players who also had all of the microtonal nuance.

Ruthless.

The thing that bugs me about it is just that it only takes the pitch up. Don’t you want to take the pitch down too?

Also interesting because all those rock dudes say BB King has the supreme vibrato (which he does) but don’t seem to do a lot of investigating as to why. I think his probably has some of that classical side to side element. It definitely has the up *and down* movement (referring to pitch, not physical movement) which makes it sound super vocal. It’s kind of hard to tell about the technique though—looks a bit like a violin vibrato, which it can’t be quite.

[Christian Miller]

Ruthless.

The thing that bugs me about it is just that it only takes the pitch up. Don’t you want to take the pitch down too?

Also interesting because all those rock dudes say BB King has the supreme vibrato (which he does) but don’t seem to do a lot of investigating as to why. I think his probably has some of that classical side to side element. It definitely has the up *and down* movement (referring to pitch, not physical movement) which makes it sound super vocal. It’s kind of hard to tell about the technique though—looks a bit like a violin vibrato, which it can’t be quite.

Yeah I think everyone just learns it a certain way and pays it no further thought. Blues players paid tremendous attention to that stuff of course

One thing that changed my life about the Clapton style bend vibrato is doing it with the second finger (Clapton does this). It’s positionally inconvenient but you get so much more control.

[RJVB]

I think his probably has some of that classical side to side element. It definitely has the up *and down* movement (referring to pitch, not physical movement) which makes it sound super vocal.

"Classical side-to-side"? As just said above classical guitar vibrato is along the length of the strings, and designed to pull on them (the way it was taught to me). That can only increase the pitch, just like a side-to-side (perpendicular to the strings) vibrato.

Classical (romantic!) violin/cello vibrato is different in that it rolls the fingertip over the string and can thus indeed lower the pitch. (Earlier types of vibrato exist that use very different techniques which either only raise the pitch or modulate the volume instead.)

The only way I can think of to get a pitch-centred vibrato on a fretted instrument is to use a tremolo device ("Bigsby") or do something comparable like bending the neck.

[pamosmusic]

"Classical side-to-side"? As just said above classical guitar vibrato is along the length of the strings, and designed to pull on them (the way it was taught to me). That can only increase the pitch, just like a side-to-side (perpendicular to the strings) vibrato.

By pushing and pulling the string side to side, you’re tightening and slackening the ringing side of the string. Tighten pulls the fretted pitch up, slacken pushes the fretted pitch down.

The up down vibrato can only tighten the ringing length so the pitch goes up both ways.