-
There is always the possibility that the OP really meant "I think ECM sucks"
-
06-27-2023 10:28 AM
-
This thread is nutz and is going in 3 different directions. I like it.
-
How about not restricting it/attempting to control it? You know... instead have the "freedom of" we are supposed to nave here?
Originally Posted by DawgBone
https://www.persecution.org/2021/06/...nary-activity/
-
Orthodoxy isn't generally open to ecumenism the way every other denomination is. Originally Posted by ruger9
-
To reiterate, as well as say it again, nothing steams my hams more than them Bluegrass "artistes" who are only in it for the money, lounging around covered in gold bling, pouring Cristal Champagne all over their girlfriends' big booties, it's ruining Bluegrass! Originally Posted by DawgBone
-
Wow this thread makes me really grateful that at least the Steve Hoffman forums have a strict "no politics or other off-topic" rule and are so heavily moderated.
-
-
lol Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
ah jazz journey, you have your moments, not many of them, but you have them.
-
You're wrong, my friend. Pat Metheny is one of my favorite artists, and biggest influences, and we all know he made several hall of fame level groundbreaking albums on the ECM label. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
-
Your theory that when someone says "an artist has soul" just means that is an artist they like, and if they don’t like an artist they won't say that, is incorrect. Let me give you an example. Rush is one of my favorite rock bands. I got into their music in Jr. High and have been a huge fan ever since. They made a lot of absolutely fantastic music, yet I don't think anyone would describe their music as being "soulful." They did however have one of the best rhythm sections in rock. I mean, Neil Peart and Geddy Lee, C'mon, if you don't consider that duo to be one of the best rhythm sections in rock history, you're straight crazy, IMO. So there's that. Listen to Geddy Lee's bass playing on the solo break in the middle of Free Will from the Permanent Waves album. It's in a progressive hard rock song, but his bass playing is downright funky. Add to that Peart's genius level drumming, making you feel the backbeat, his cool exciting fills, and his creative, on point use of syncopation at just the perfect moments, yeah that ish was tight. Neil Peart is the best drummer to have ever done it, IMO, and in the opinion of a lot of other people too.
In fact, Grammy winning jazz phenom Antônio Sanchez is on record stating that Neil Peart was one of his major influences as a drummer. I've seen pics, from when Antonio was a teen, and he actually had the Neil Peart drum kit in his music room that he played on. He must have listened to a lot of Rush too. And Antonio is a fantastic drummer in his own right, really gifted, technically proficient, and creative. I'm sure Neil would approve of his drumming prowess.
So I can like an artists' music without it being in the soulful music category, BUT their music still has to be slammin' and on point, not aimless fast noodling all the time that doesn't seem to convey emotions or have a point to it. Great jazz guitar improv, or any style for that matter, tells a story, a narrative, with great phrasing, great sense of direction, a style that builds to a climax, or several climaxes
, then comes to a beautiful resolution, like a good story; and it really connects with the rhythm that's going on behind it, for example.
So no, I don't just say music has soul if I like it, and say it doesn't if I don't like it. That is really over simplistic thinking, IMO.Last edited by James Haze; 06-27-2023 at 07:14 PM.
-
… wow, I have not read everything in this thread.. maybe I will get back to it…
I believe you can teach “soul”. I would define it as an expression of emotion that is influenced by the ability to be and have empathy. When I was 17(ish), there was an older friend of mine, a serious gigging professional, who played with major touring acts. (For example, he auditioned for Micheal Jackson. He did not get the job. Jennifer Battion did).
He placed in front of a four track reel to reel recorder, and had me recording solo after solo, over the same bluesy backing track. He had me do it, until he could feel it. He told me to play with feeling. Eventually he said it was good enough. From that moment on I always remember to play with feeling. It gets tricky when I am developing music language, but eventually it clicks. I can analyze it. There is a set of skills but it has to become organic.
When it come to spirituality, well, to me: there is love or fear, care or hate, kindness or judgement… pretty simply stuff. It can be tricky. The hardest part is the ability to be honest with oneself, and take responsibility for actions and choices. Over all I see very little of that. Of course, I can never really know… I myself struggle often enough. That often reminds me if the “eye of the needle” story.
-
You can't teach feeling, you've got it or you ain't. But it can be encouraged.
-
The other hardest part (IMHO) as a musician is to evoke feelings in others without being overcome by them yourself. It's a very common beginners mistake to "feel" something emotional in music you play and more or less get stuck there or, worse, lose control of your playing. The audience can see that you're (apparently) playing with feeling but they can't hear it. Originally Posted by st.bede
I'm often reminded of that when watching someone make intense facial grimaces or body contortions and can never help thinking that that energy would be so much better put in the music...
There are things you can only teach by guiding a person to discover something for himself, literally a trial-and-error process. Originally Posted by ragman1
-
You don’t have to feel it - they should feel it.
Anyway this always makes me think of acting. Stanislavsky Vs the English Technical school
-
That's interesting. Before this thread, I would have said that's an oxymoron. "They" COULDN'T feel it if YOU don't, and if they do, it's "false." Originally Posted by Christian Miller
But I'm here (on Earth) to learn, and grow. If you ain't learnin', you're dyin'. It's been an interesting thread.
Someone mentioned big band. I grew up listening to big band, and still love it to this day. I wonder if when Glen Miller Orchestra played "Moonlight Serenade", were they FEELING it? ALL of them? Or does just the conductor (Miller) have to feel it? Or did only the composer (Miller) have to "feel" it when they wrote it? Because *I* feel it. Interesting.
-
I'm sure there were many, many nights o the road when they all, to a man, phoned it in. They stepped up to their marks, took up their instruments, and for the 25,000th time, played it as if they felt it. But the music did its work anyway. I think when we say someone "doesn't feel it" we often mean something about their deportment has subliminally turned us off. Or maybe it's a feature of the recording that makes the music sound a bit sterile, or whatever. the problem with making "soul" some kind of objective feature of the music is that we then have to accept the authority of the person declaring such music "soulful." But I think in the end "soul" is in the ear and heart of the listener. Maybe it matches something in the heart of the musician too, but I know at least that I am not a mind reader. Originally Posted by ruger9
I think the music is the thing. A lot of players on any given night are exhausted, depressed, preoccupied, but somehow even phoning it in, they produce moving, wonderful music.
that's why we call them "professionals."
-
It's not so much that you feel it on purpose, I think, it's more that the feeling passes into you. Call that what you like metaphysically.
OTOH we must maintain the illusion that we also feel it when the audience responds emotionally. But that's not to say it is always an illusion or some sort of cheap emotional manipulation. It's complicated ok?
-
But that would imply the feeling HAS to come from the musician, if it's going to "pass into you"... because it's got to come from somewhere? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
I've found audiences, and some musicians, are less aware of rhythmic inconsistencies that happen with a band, even bands with great players, on given nights, causing those who are in the know, to feel like it's an off night. There are those moments where everyone in the band is hitting it just right and mistakes are almost an impossibility, even when they are made, because the pull of rhythm is so strong. The audience generally doesn't pick up on the small cues like a good musician would, so they are still "feeling" the music even though you might be saying "this isn't our best night". You think your car is running great but a mechanic might say "you have a miss in cylinder 5" just from his experience. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
I'd put this a little bit different. There are times where you don't notice errors (or they don't bother you) because of the musical intensity that's going on. That might be more true for errors not related to rythm. Originally Posted by DawgBone
-
"Feeling" is often a symbiotic relationship between the player and listener. And it depends on lots of factors.
-
I think Rush's Working Man has a healthy scoop of soul.
-
I'm not sure it's a matter of trial and error either. If you've got it, you've got it. Originally Posted by RJVB
-
Me too! I'm a linguist so I'm always fascinated with words and language. When we say "soul" it can have a few meanings (an emotional trait, a human quality, a non-physical entity given to us by a diety, whatever other nuances Websters gives it). Usually a word can be defined by examining it's features. A "bird" has wings, it flys, has 3 or 4 toes on skinny legs, lives in a tree, has feathers. But penguins are birds and don't have most of those features. Point is we can define black and white examples, but the stuff that lives on the edges almost defies definition. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
When we talk about "soul" in terms of music, most of it will live on the edges. I've had wonderful emotional experiences with music that I would call soulful that is definitely Country, rock, jazz, accapella choral, a guy who could barely play acoustic and pretty terrible voice. No definition will capture all of that, so I'll fall back on the lame "you'll know it when you see it", and "it's very personal".
And most importantly, I'll go listen to some "soulful" music that feeds my spirit. But, what do I know, I'm a soulless hack.
-
Dunno, that’s above my pay grade. Theists are going tie it in to their beliefs, new age types something else, atheists will have another explanation and so on. It doesn’t change anything. Originally Posted by ruger9
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos