Allan Holdsworth deep dive

[Christian Miller]

This is why we let you keep coming back here, Christian.

(though I have no idea what this means)

Scooby doo = clue

Simple. As.


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[Cunamara]

You had me at "conservative jazz goobers" !

Much more descriptive than "moldy figs."

I think for most Allan Holdsworth fans, his playing grabbed them fairly immediately. But for some it took a while to get there, because there is so little frame of reference to understand what he is playing. He just did not sound like anyone else before him in the history of music, as far as I know. Even Coltrane, whom he cites as an influence.

That's not to say that I love everything Allan played. I have to admit some of the synth stuff doesn't do a lot for me, but I don't really care for keyboard synths all that much either. I have the box set of complete recordings although I haven't gotten through all of them yet. "16 Men of Tain," "None Too Soon" and "All Night Wrong" may be my favorites. "Fred" may be my single favorite Holdsworth tune (there is a version of him playing it on acoustic guitar from very early in his career, with a different name for the song, somewhere on YouTube).

[Mick-7]

the acoustic at the venue was pants and the sound guy didn't have a Scooby Doo

This is why we let you keep coming back here, Christian.

(though I have no idea what this means)

I know that I would never wear my Scooby Doo pants on a gig.... well, maybe at a child's birthday party, that's the one exception.

[Christian Miller]

I know that I would never wear my Scooby Doo pants on a gig.... well, maybe at a child's birthday party, that's the one exception.

Are you having a Bubble Bath?


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[Bob_Ross]

"Fred" may be my single favorite Holdsworth tune (there is a version of him playing it on acoustic guitar from very early in his career, with a different name for the song, somewhere on YouTube).

Pretty sure that's either "Floppy Hat" or "Kinder" from his self-maligned CTI debut album Velvet Darkness.

Funny Story: When I was shopping for a flattop steel string acoustic guitar a couple years ago I went into this modest-sized Mom & Pop music store in Tucson AZ and started checking out some Yamaha instruments, and I played the first two chords from Holdsworth's "Fred" and I swear every employee in that shop stopped what they were doing and came over to listen. One guy -- who turned out to be the store manager -- said "Them sure is some pretty chords!" in a voice that reminded me a bit too much of the movie Deliverance.

[Bob_Ross]

Pretty sure that's either "Floppy Hat" or "Kinder" from his self-maligned CTI debut album Velvet Darkness.

It's "Kinder"

[Mick-7]

It's "Kinder"

Very nice, I've never heard Allan on acoustic guitar before (wonder what model guitar he played?). I see there are two more acoustic tracks on that album:

[wolflen]

Thanks for mentioning that, I had made a note to myself to give that approach some practice time but forgot all about it. I had noticed that certain scale sets/patterns lay out on the fretboard in an unconventional way, this became apparent while reading through Slonimsky's book.

Yes working with Slonimsky and doing extensive diminished/augmented scale studies .. taking patterns thru different string sets in different positions
opened alot of melodic over harmonic ideas

seeing a Db diminished scale/C lydian dominant/D whole tone all on the same string set in the same position against chords with extended
voicings 13b9/MA7#11 and a series of slash chords..It gave me alot of melodic material to use against those type of chords..then move to a
different string set and position and its new sounding..I can't say I can follow Alan but one thing he said I think of often..
It takes about two years to learn a new scale...this stopped me in my tracks..so to speak

[Mick-7]

I can't say I can follow Alan but one thing he said I think of often... It takes about two years to learn a new scale... this stopped me in my tracks..so to speak

Except for the major scale, since it's so common. I found the symmetrical scales, whole tone and diminished, easy to learn/hear too... then again, if "learn" means to integrate them fully into your playing (I suspect that is Allan's definition of it?), then they are probably not exceptions to his 2 year rule.

[Cunamara]

Pretty sure that's either "Floppy Hat" or "Kinder" from his self-maligned CTI debut album Velvet Darkness.

Prior to that, I think that it was under the name of Pat Smythe. Might be in this under yet another title:

IIRC he asked people not to buy that album as it was basically a rehearsal that was taped, preparing to do the recording session, and released against his wishes.

[James W]

Very nice, I've never heard Allan on acoustic guitar before (wonder what model guitar he played?).

There's also this:

[dasein]

Something that took me a long time to learn (and many people never learn): there's a very big difference between what is good and what you like.

The first Holdsworth I heard was "Metal Fatigue." I thought the opening riff (with the harmonizer) was so cool. Then the verse started. I don't know that I've ever been let down by a song so badly in my life.

I'm not afraid to admit that there is a lot of Holdsworth I don't really care for. I'm pretty allergic to 70's/80's fusion cheese, and there is a lot of that in Holdsworth's catalog. The production is too slick. I cannot stand the synth-axe stuff. Anytime there's a song with a singer involved, I die a little. And (probably most controversially), I've never found his chordal playing super compelling. I'm very aware of how unusual his voicing choices are and how difficult they are to play. But it still feels very cheesy to me. Closer to Andy Summers than Bill Evans. If I compare him to other players whose chordal playing will give you carpal tunnel, like Ben Monder, and the choice is very obvious to me.

All that said: it doesn't matter what I like. Holdsworth was an objectively great player, and one of the few electric guitarists that came up with a whole new paradigm for the instrument.

Going back to "Metal Fatigue." As much as I couldn't stand the song itself, the solo was a shock. An instant "wait, how the f--k is he even doing that?" There are many, many players out there who play things I can't play, but I still more or less know what they're doing. With Holdsworth, so much is a mystery. I have no clue what he's doing. The fact that only recently have people come out with actual helpful instructional material (never mind that they're all the lengths of PhD theses) after 40+ years should be a clue that it can't just be reduced to "digital patterns."

My favorite album is "All Night Wrong" (really helps that it wasn't in a studio and overproduced to hell). I really wish he had done something like a collaboration with a high energy acoustic jazz trio. Something like McCoy Tyner "SuperTrio" with Tony Williams. But as it stands, Holdsworth has probably compelled me to listen to more music I don't like than any other musician. That's an accomplishment in and of itself.

[Cunamara]

I suppose that's a tribute to Allan Holdsworth. That his playing is still mysterious, baffling, controversial years and years later is pretty impressive. There is some Hallsworth that I too don't care for, particularly the SynthAxe stuff myself, although I've also heard places where he used it quite artfully. And I happen to like his melodic chordal playing a lot.

It is reported here and there on the Internet that John McLaughlin told him "I'd steal everything you do, except I can't figure out how you do it."

[James W]

Dasein, I hear what you're saying, and I admire your objectivity regarding Holdsworth. I too perceive a kind of cheesiness in some of Holdsworth's music (I say 'music' rather than 'playing' because it tends to be something to do with the production, timbre or vocals, mostly, rather than his playing) however I think this has to be seen relatively - I mean, by comparison to some other 80s or 90s fusion, Holdsworth isn't *that* cheesy (just listen to some of Gambale's stuff).

So, while I perceive the cheesiness, for me, the positives overwhelmingly outweigh that negative. I will say that Holdsworth often counter-balances any cheesiness with his soloing which often is tonally and rhythmically adventurous and incredibly colourful and he's not frightened of dissonant sheets of sound. In any case, I generally find his music incredibly beautiful, which over time has become sort of inseparable from what could be perceived as any cheesiness. I think perhaps Allan tried to balance these things.

It's one of those things. I couldn't disagree with someone saying they thought late Coltrane harsh or even cacophonous - I can definitely see where they're coming from, it's just I love that music and the harshness as it manifests particularly in that music is part of its immense intensity and profound forms of expression.

[Christian Miller]

I think I find the cheesiness in Allan’s stuff more a function of the instrumentation and production more than the notes.


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[mr. beaumont]

I think I find the cheesiness in Allan’s stuff more a function of the instrumentation and production more than the notes.


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Yeah, I'd say generally Allan's playing is the anti-cheese, it's a challenging listen.

Sometimes I like to use the word "dated" in regards to production over "cheesy." What's the difference? Some 80's ECM stuff sounds "dated," or a very specific product of it's time that was cutting edge in the moment.

Cheesy is that keyboard sound that kicks off every Disney ballad (Or the intro to one of my favorite songs ever, Sergio Mendes' "Never Gonna Let You Go")

[pamosmusic]

People said/say the same thing about John Coltrane.

Like Coltrane, Allan is capable of being extremely lyrical too.

I find the thing that turns me off to Allan is usually the tones and timbres in the band. Just the 70s/80s synth tones and stuff. But the music is pretty wild.

sort of what i meant by this

[Cunamara]

Dasein, I hear what you're saying, and I admire your objectivity regarding Holdsworth. I too perceive a kind of cheesiness in some of Holdsworth's music (I say 'music' rather than 'playing' because it tends to be something to do with the production, timbre or vocals, mostly, rather than his playing) however I think this has to be seen relatively - I mean, by comparison to some other 80s or 90s fusion, Holdsworth isn't *that* cheesy (just listen to some of Gambale's stuff).

So, while I perceive the cheesiness, for me, the positives overwhelmingly outweigh that negative. I will say that Holdsworth often counter-balances any cheesiness with his soloing which often is tonally and rhythmically adventurous and incredibly colourful and he's not frightened of dissonant sheets of sound. In any case, I generally find his music incredibly beautiful, which over time has become sort of inseparable from what could be perceived as any cheesiness. I think perhaps Allan tried to balance these things.

It's one of those things. I couldn't disagree with someone saying they thought late Coltrane harsh or even cacophonous - I can definitely see where they're coming from, it's just I love that music and the harshness as it manifests particularly in that music is part of its immense intensity and profound forms of expression.

Like Jeff, I don't hear "cheesiness" as much as I hear "dated technology." To my ears, nothing ages worse than synthesizers (and amplified rather than miked acoustic instruments). By the same token, there is a fair amount of Bill Frisell's stuff that has not aged well; his playing is brilliant, but I really dislike a lot of the effects that he uses. I've been listening to an organ trio record with Frisell, Michael Shrieve and Wayne Horvitz which was released on Bandcamp a few years ago, but recorded in the late 70s; Frisell is just flying on that record.


I am one who finds late (and some mid and early) Coltrane to be harsh and cacophonous, some of it unlistenable. Although there are standouts here and there, even in that period of his work, that I like. There is very little by Holdsworth that I find unlistenable, although there are things I like much better than other things.

I would say that the musical arcs of Bill Frisell and John Coltrane both had significantly wider breadth than Allan did. His approach to music did not really change all that drastically over the course of his career. But compare Coltrane on KOB versus Giant Steps versus A Love Supreme versus his last recordings. Wow. Even though I don't like something, there's no way not to be awed by it. Similarly with Frisell- his stuff with Shrieve, Scofield, John Zorn, Paul Motian, the 858 Quartet, vs. Music Is... Wow again.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, I'd say generally Allan's playing is the anti-cheese, it's a challenging listen.

Sometimes I like to use the word "dated" in regards to production over "cheesy." What's the difference? Some 80's ECM stuff sounds "dated," or a very specific product of it's time that was cutting edge in the moment.

Cheesy is that keyboard sound that kicks off every Disney ballad (Or the intro to one of my favorite songs ever, Sergio Mendes' "Never Gonna Let You Go")

I think I would have found it cheesy at the time


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[zdub]

[Litterick]

It was acceptable in the eighties.

[Christian Miller]

It was acceptable in the eighties.

I feel like the live trio stuff has aged a bit better.

[supersoul]

I feel like the live trio stuff has aged a bit better.

I tend to agree. He had a tendency to make his studio recording too perfect. That live recording is him out on the tight rope but sounding great. I can also hear the sound of the group.
Flat Tire is perhaps my favorite Holdsworth album. It's a bit of an outlier, and I think he goes into some new territories: more atmostpheric, less notes.
He's one of the few "fast" players who plays fast for a reason. Most fast guitar playing has some element of shredding, but I get the feeling that Allan was doing it only for musical reasons. Very much like Coltrane's sheets of sound approach, where he was trying to play notes fast enough that they appeared as chords.
I disagree about Holdsworth sounding cheesy/dated. In a decade it won't sound cheesy/dated anymore. The sound of those glassy, digital synths and the high-80s production are still finding their way into how we hear. Personally, I know that I hear 80s pop music differently now than I heard it in the 80s. Today's high-gloss pop production often makes 80s stuff sound almost primative.

[Christian Miller]

I love how raw he is on the live stuff - he was a real improviser


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[James W]

I tend to agree. He had a tendency to make his studio recording too perfect. That live recording is him out on the tight rope but sounding great. I can also hear the sound of the group.
Flat Tire is perhaps my favorite Holdsworth album. It's a bit of an outlier, and I think he goes into some new territories: more atmostpheric, less notes.
He's one of the few "fast" players who plays fast for a reason. Most fast guitar playing has some element of shredding, but I get the feeling that Allan was doing it only for musical reasons. Very much like Coltrane's sheets of sound approach, where he was trying to play notes fast enough that they appeared as chords.
I disagree about Holdsworth sounding cheesy/dated. In a decade it won't sound cheesy/dated anymore. The sound of those glassy, digital synths and the high-80s production are still finding their way into how we hear. Personally, I know that I hear 80s pop music differently now than I heard it in the 80s. Today's high-gloss pop production often makes 80s stuff sound almost primative.

I mean I've never had a problem with the sound of synths - just initially things like Rowanne Mark's vocal on 'Secrets' somewhat reminded me of Julie Andrews (but that tune is still sublime). But bits of 'cheese' here and there were long ago dissolved into like I say an overwhelming appreciation of his music.

(It's a bit like Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony, the fifth movement of which is reminiscent of a certain song from The Wizard of Oz...)

And I agree about the live recordings - I was just this morning listening to the Warsaw one, where his tone has quite a bit of nasal bite to it - it's peak Holdsworth IMO...

I mentioned before I'm very lucky to have seen him live with Jimmy Johnson and Chad Wackerman. Stupidly, I managed to lose this poster, but at least I have a picture of it...