20th century jazz guitar forum?

[emanresu]

Pretty much all social media bots (and other... media) are heavily focused on the top 10 of something.
It's very hurtful to young starting talent. In every field.

[wolflen]

some may say.."Miles did it.." Hmm..perhaps..but HE was there when it happened..

Kind of Blue remains a top selling album..50+ years..jazz is dead? really..? some say KOB isnt "really" jazz..ok..I agree to a point..to me its "compositional improvisation"

the term modal jazz tells us little..but then again where does bebop end and something else begin

today music education is learning from the student..blends of metal..rock..jazz..some call it new fusion..taking the energy, speed of Coltrane and pushing it to the other side

the 70's fusion bands gave birth to speed metal..which splintered into different sub styles..but yet embraces the raw energy of classic rock

Van Halen was a teacher as much as any music education dept in top schools or commercial outlets ...did Hendrix pave the way to Eddies vision of "electric guitar" and how many did VH influence..Govan on acid?

what will computerized music sound like in 10 20 30 years..what will it be called..Jazz Rock ChipHOP ..ahh the problem with labels defining art of any expression..

so you go to a music school..in hopes of learning what..how to play Bach's Goldberg Variations on a telecaster at 220bpm through a 9 pedal board set up?

and how much theory/harmony do you need to play the melody of Blue in Green

and the student becomes the teacher

[Christian Miller]

Christian,
You are young.
Therefore, you are more interested in young guitars players.
This is normal.You have a lot of knowledge about it.
I believe that there is so much knowledge in old recordings that I don't have to look for new inspirations by force.
Some people play Django style and aren't interested in anything other than playing the master's licks...

Thabks, but calling me young would be stretching it. I think I look young?

If you asked most of the people I play with what I play they’d say pre war/‘gypsy jazz’ guitar and bop guitar. I’ve listened to and transcribed a lot of that stuff although I wouldn’t claim to be any sort of expert on a specific guitarist of that era, that’s not how I’ve done it. But I’m widely listened I would say. Obviously I’ve studied a lot of bop.

I also like contemporary jazz but am far from the most knowledgable about it. There’s some great music being done atm.

I like music, I’m not sold on one era or genre specifically.

Most of my gigs at the moment are playing Django style stuff actually, which I try to do in a ‘open minded’ non stylistic way if that makes any sense - im not interested in being a clone of Birelli even if I had the chops. I think Julian Lage is really good at this, I like his swing playing. He clearly loves Eddie Lang. This vibe really shows up in his electric playing too… all those old songs he likes.

I mean Lage Lund started with Django….

I like being eclectic. Metheny and Scofield ard as eclectic as they come… I hear old 30s stride in some of Sco’s things, New Orleans jazz, all sorts. their imitators maybe copy the result not the process?

[kris]

Thabks, but calling me young would be stretching it. I think I look young?

If you asked most of the people I play with what I play they’d say pre war/‘gypsy jazz’ guitar and bop guitar. I’ve listened to and transcribed a lot of that stuff although I wouldn’t claim to be any sort of expert on a specific guitarist of that era, that’s not how I’ve done it. But I’m widely listened I would say. Obviously I’ve studied a lot of bop.

I also like contemporary jazz but am far from the most knowledgable about it. There’s some great music being done atm.

I like music, I’m not sold on one era or genre specifically.

Most of my gigs at the moment are playing Django style stuff actually, which I try to do in a ‘open minded’ non stylistic way if that makes any sense. I think Julian Lage is really good at this, I like his swing playing. He clearly loves Eddie Lang.

I mean Lage Lund started with Django….

I like being eclectic. Metheny and Scofield arr as eclectic as they come… their imitators maybe copy the result not the process?

There must be something in it that all guitarists, regardless of age, appreciate Django's work.

[Christian Miller]

There must be something in it that all guitarists, regardless of age, appreciate Django's work.

For sure…. there’s a lot there…

[Peter C]

1958

2014

[rictroll]

BE could play like Bud Powell if he wanted to.

I’m less and less convinced by these sorts of viewpoints, and BE has a few quotes to this effect. As a BE admirer, I disagree.

My real problem - and I don’t think this was ever Bill’s intention in a million years - but to define jazz in this way is to minimise its history, social and cultural aspects, including its unique fusion of African and European musical cultures. as an musician who had worked with the best, perhaps this culture was so natural to him that he didn’t give it much thought. This was a world with standard songs on the radio, and full jazz clubs, and in New York a community of some of the greatest musicians in the history of the world.

With apologies for going off topic - I posted the Bill Evans quote because its more useful for me to think of jazz being a process rather than a genre. I certainly understand why some like to categorize jazz as a period of music, or define it as having specific characteristics. But I don't like labels; and genre labels get murky in terms of period, style, sub-genres, etc.

For me, thinking about it as a process embraces the reality that jazz musicians take the music around them and utilize it for improvisation and/or melodic, harmonic and rhythmic elaboration.

However, I do agree with your comment about 'the process viewpoint' tending to minimize the history, social and cultural aspects of jazz. I fear the lack of cultural relevance is the most significant reason jazz doesn't resonate with listeners as it once did. And this probably applies to rock music at this point, as well. Folk music needs to change as the folks change.

[guitar1303]

Referring to the beginning of this thread, I'm not sure there has been any great music written since Bach died in 1750!

Anyway, maybe it's because I'm a hobbyist (hate that term), but I play what I like and what attracted me to the various genres. When I'm playing (trying to play?) jazz, I prefer the music styles of Joe Pass and Kenny Burrell. I certainly have and enjoy recordings of others like Benson, Pizzarelli (father and son), Metheny, and Lage but my heart remains in old fart land (and, at 69 years old, it's a place I find comfortable). Perhaps because I am an old fart, I've seen too many musicians over the years who have technical skills that are almost beyond belief yet fail to impress me musically. I can appreciate their talent -- perhaps even be jealous of their prowess -- but have little or no desire to listen. (Then again, I listen to CDs -- you know, those little round plastic things that look like coasters -- so maybe I'm not the guy to pass judgment on 21st century jazz guitarists.)

I have no doubt that some of the new players will eventually be recognized for their excellence but that's a judgment that can only come with time.

[kris]

Referring to the beginning of this thread, I'm not sure there has been any great music written since Bach died in 1750!

Anyway, maybe it's because I'm a hobbyist (hate that term), but I play what I like and what attracted me to the various genres. When I'm playing (trying to play?) jazz, I prefer the music styles of Joe Pass and Kenny Burrell. I certainly have and enjoy recordings of others like Benson, Pizzarelli (father and son), Metheny, and Lage but my heart remains in old fart land (and, at 69 years old, it's a place I find comfortable). Perhaps because I am an old fart, I've seen too many musicians over the years who have technical skills that are almost beyond belief yet fail to impress me musically. I can appreciate their talent -- perhaps even be jealous of their prowess -- but have little or no desire to listen. (Then again, I listen to CDs -- you know, those little round plastic things that look like coasters -- so maybe I'm not the guy to pass judgment on 21st century jazz guitarists.)

I have no doubt that some of the new players will eventually be recognized for their excellence but that's a judgment that can only come with time.

Since you are a hobbyist, you can write whatever you want and you can play what you want.
What about those who are not only hobbyists?

[kris]

1958

2014

I'm really scared that persons from outer space will appear soon, who will start playing guitars and have never heard Django Reinhardt play.

[kris]

With apologies for going off topic - I posted the Bill Evans quote because its more useful for me to think of jazz being a process rather than a genre. I certainly understand why some like to categorize jazz as a period of music, or define it as having specific characteristics. But I don't like labels; and genre labels get murky in terms of period, style, sub-genres, etc.

For me, thinking about it as a process embraces the reality that jazz musicians take the music around them and utilize it for improvisation and/or melodic, harmonic and rhythmic elaboration.

However, I do agree with your comment about 'the process viewpoint' tending to minimize the history, social and cultural aspects of jazz. I fear the lack of cultural relevance is the most significant reason jazz doesn't resonate with listeners as it once did. And this probably applies to rock music at this point, as well. Folk music needs to change as the folks change.

Maybe a sociological study would have to be done - what kind of music young people listen to and what old ones...?
or more specifically, what kind of jazz are young and old listening to?
the question is whether they even listen to music?

[Litterick]

Young people do not listen to music; they hear it.

[kris]

Really? I also want it like that.
I wonder how they got there?

[kris]

I'm going to hear the late Coltrane.

[Christian Miller]

Referring to the beginning of this thread, I'm not sure there has been any great music written since Bach died in 1750!

Well you know Bach was just ripping off Buxtehude… honestly, I feel the whole baroque was a mistake to be honest. Should have just stuck to madrigals and acapella masses. Bloody modernists.

Anyway, maybe it's because I'm a hobbyist (hate that term), but I play what I like and what attracted me to the various genres. When I'm playing (trying to play?) jazz, I prefer the music styles of Joe Pass and Kenny Burrell. I certainly have and enjoy recordings of others like Benson, Pizzarelli (father and son), Metheny, and Lage but my heart remains in old fart land (and, at 69 years old, it's a place I find comfortable). Perhaps because I am an old fart, I've seen too many musicians over the years who have technical skills that are almost beyond belief yet fail to impress me musically. I can appreciate their talent -- perhaps even be jealous of their prowess -- but have little or no desire to listen. (Then again, I listen to CDs -- you know, those little round plastic things that look like coasters -- so maybe I'm not the guy to pass judgment on 21st century jazz guitarists.)

People used to store music on physical media? but if so how did people use it to soundtrack their TikTok videos?

I have no doubt that some of the new players will eventually be recognized for their excellence but that's a judgment that can only come with time.

In seriousness, my perpetual fear is that I would be one of the guys in 1948 going ‘well Charlie Parker isn’t real jazz, you know… you young whippersnappers should listen to some Bix Beiderbecke.’

[Christian Miller]

With apologies for going off topic - I posted the Bill Evans quote because its more useful for me to think of jazz being a process rather than a genre. I certainly understand why some like to categorize jazz as a period of music, or define it as having specific characteristics. But I don't like labels; and genre labels get murky in terms of period, style, sub-genres, etc.

For me, thinking about it as a process embraces the reality that jazz musicians take the music around them and utilize it for improvisation and/or melodic, harmonic and rhythmic elaboration.

However, I do agree with your comment about 'the process viewpoint' tending to minimize the history, social and cultural aspects of jazz. I fear the lack of cultural relevance is the most significant reason jazz doesn't resonate with listeners as it once did. And this probably applies to rock music at this point, as well. Folk music needs to change as the folks change.

Yeah Bill Evans and cultural aspects? What does a fish know of the ocean?

I think I spent too much emotional capital into jazz as a process. Real world music isn’t like that, even for the likes of Miles. Any competent jazz musician can improvise something; the trick is refining what you do.

The most important thing, as unfashionable as it is to say, is that the music sounds good. As a result improvisation is constantly feeding into composition and arrangement. What I come up with instantly is rarely as good as what I have when I’ve worked on something. OTOH improvisation keeps it fresh.

[kris]

This is probably a more philosophical thread.
There are recordings of young people that "bore me", and there are also recordings of the old ones that "bore me" too.
I am looking for what does not bore me.
I approach novelties with a distance because I have been bored more than once.
This is my private reflection.
Everyone can understand my thinking differently.
This is it.

[jzucker]

I would not like to think that there is a predominance here of ol' farts drooling over expensive gear with their ears glued to pre-70s (60s?) music - perish the thought. So why do the below extremely talented and currently active jazz guitarists (most of whom also compose) seem to get relatively little airtime 'round these parts? Where does it say that this is the 20th century only jazz guitar forum? Maybe I missed it.

Matthew Stevens, Gilad Hekselman, Mike Moreno, Adam Rogers, Nir Felder (just a few that came to mind). Rosenwinkel and Kreisberg, too, to an extent.

you're welcome to join the modern jazz guitar forum on facebook. Modern Jazz Guitar. Kriesberg, rogers, hekselman, Yotam and many other modern players belong and are regularly featured

[kris]

you're welcome to join the modern jazz guitar forum on facebook. Modern Jazz Guitar. Kriesberg, rogers, hekselman, Yotam and many other modern players belong and are regularly featured

Nice to see You Jack
Best
Kris

[sgosnell]

Facebook? No, thanks.

[jzucker]

Facebook? No, thanks.

Funny enough that about a year ago, I got tired of facebook and started discussions in the group about moving it over to a message board such as this one. Most of the feedback including many famous players indicated they wouldn't follow the group if it moved off of social media so it stays on FB for now...

[MarkRhodes]

I'm a certified old fart.
I don't drool over expensive gear (-I play a $200 Tele and a $150 bass) but I do much prefer jazz from before 1970 to jazz that came later. There are exceptions but not that many.
Some people seek the new and novel and God bless them all, each and every one.
I think Rust Hills put it best: "Only the bored welcome the unexpected." I am not bored.

[Peter C]

One (21st century) player I recently posted has been praised by Down Beat, NPR, Jazz Times, Billboard, The New York Times, All About Jazz and others. Replies: 0, so these media obviously don't understand jazz.

At least the Sandra Hempel post got 3 likes.

I would really like to see more discussion about these players, both virtues and sins, given their relevance to jazz.

[fep]

One (21st century) player I recently posted has been praised by Down Beat, NPR, Jazz Times, Billboard, The New York Times, All About Jazz and others. Replies: 0, so these media obviously don't understand jazz.

At least the Sandra Hempel post got 3 likes.

I would really like to see more discussion about these players, both virtues and sins, given their relevance to jazz.

I would really like to see more people post their own playing on this forum.

[Peter C]

^ That's a given as far as I'm concerned.