More B_lls Than Talent . . . What Do You Think?

[dot75]

I thought I've heard it all . . .but here it goes: Pat Boone singing "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag," and "Soul Man."

Play live . . . Marinero

It's worse than you think - he's got form. Don't even try to listen to his versions of Little Richard's hits...

tutti frutti was played in my presence once as a joke, it may have done permanent damage...

Edit...not the least of which was that he 'corrected' the words,

'Got a girl named Daisy' became 'I've got a girl, named Daisy'

'didn't scan but he couldn't bring himself to sing grammatically incorrect lyrics & corrupt the kids.

[Doctor Jeff]

Pat Boone baptized singer/songwriter/pianist/guitarist Judee Sill in his backyard swimming pool.

Whatever he did, it didn't save her from a sad ending.

I wonder if she wrote Jesus Was a Crossmaker before or after that?

(BTW love that song, but I am having trouble with that image. Was Jesus forced to actually make the instrument of his demise? Do we make our own crosses? That could be...)

[sasquatch]

Coincidentally I was listening to Pat's version of Smoke On The Water yesterday
The studio version is much better than the trainwreck live version I'd seen previously...compelling as it is.
He even corrects the words and sings 'Rolling Stones truck' rather than 'Rolling truck Stones'. Nice work Pat!

[Marinero]

"

tutti frutti was played in my presence once as a joke, it may have done permanent damage...

"Edit...not the least of which was that he 'corrected' the words,

"'Got a girl named Daisy' became 'I've got a girl, named Daisy'

'didn't scan but he couldn't bring himself to sing grammatically incorrect lyrics & corrupt the kids." Dot75

Hi, D,
Do you think Pat sleeps in pajamas?
Play live . . . Marinero

[ronjazz]

Keep your eyes peeled for the great Barney Kessel in the background of those Lawrence Welk shows.

Bernard Purdie on drums as well!

[jameslovestal]

Bernard Purdie on drums as well!

So was Barney Kessell "simply making money off the tone-deaf" when he played on the Welk show?

[Marinero]

So was Barney Kessell "simply making money off the tone-deaf" when he played on the Welk show?

Hi, J,
No, not necessarily. Pat Boone owned that crowd. Lawrence Welk appealed to a post WWII audience of people who wanted to forget the war years and escape into a temporal fantasy world of song, dance, music, and variety. He was notorious for poor pay, his prudish demeanor, and dictatorial attitude to his show member/musicians but he provided them a national TV recognition. Few of this "stars" ever became famous outside the program although Teddy Wilson and Pete Fountain also played with Welk for a time, but left for better music and greener pastures.
So, the difference between Welk and Boone was that Welk was a real musician who hired real musicians and people who could sing and dance but appealed to a largely Blue Collar audience.. . ergo his watered down syrup Music. Our beloved Pat, on the other hand, wasn't a musician, couldn't sing and God save the world if he ever tried to dance. I still can't believe that many "Welkies" were in his audience. . . only the Shadow knows.
Play live . . . Marinero

[AllanAllen]

Contrary to what most people here believe,a professional musician plays gigs. All kinds of gigs. Barney being a first call session man, was probably reading sheets for double scale. As professional musicians do.

[Dennis D]

So was Barney Kessell "simply making money off the tone-deaf" when he played on the Welk show?

What would necessarily categorize LW's music as only appreciated by the tone deaf ?

My brother and sisters and I were those kids who had to sit through those shows on Saturday nights, each week praying that'd be the week they'd have a Buddy Merrill -Neil Levang duet. Where else would you see guitarists solo on tv ? Nowhere. I was trying to recall what or who else was on Saturday nights, and I can't.
His musicians could play. You may not have liked the polkas, and the bubbles, but they could play. And if any musicians were going to leave his show, there were guys ready to apply. He had his pick of any accordion players in the country before Myron Floren got the job and one was Kenny Kotwitz - more than capable and hardly playing for the tone deaf.

And the musicians got to stay home, and weren't on the road, and had a steady gig. And whatever amount they were, the checks were good. He'd have had to pay scale right ?

Liking polka music doesn't necessarily make you tone deaf.

[Dennis D]

I did try but couldn't find a vid of Robin Williams doing LW......

......" That wass real nisse boys -- now let's get down and get fon-kee "

[jameslovestal]

What would necessarily categorize LW's music as only appreciated by the tone deaf ?

My brother and sisters and I were those kids who had to sit through those shows on Saturday nights, each week praying that'd be the week they'd have a Buddy Merrill -Neil Levang duet. Where else would you see guitarists solo on tv ? Nowhere. I was trying to recall what or who else was on Saturday nights, and I can't.
His musicians could play. You may not have liked the polkas, and the bubbles, but they could play. And if any musicians were going to leave his show, there were guys ready to apply. He had his pick of any accordion players in the country before Myron Floren got the job and one was Kenny Kotwitz - more than capable and hardly playing for the tone deaf.

And the musicians got to stay home, and weren't on the road, and had a steady gig. And whatever amount they were, the checks were good. He'd have had to pay scale right ?

Liking polka music doesn't necessarily make you tone deaf.

Uh, please follow the flow of posts; My question was to those elites at this thread that appear to believe anyone that listens to someone like Pat Boone is tone-deaf by default.

Anyhow, I agree with you here. For some being a musician is a job. Only the few have a job where they can do only what they want.

[jazzkritter]

Liking polka music doesn't necessarily make you tone deaf.

True. But it did cause my Polish mom to insist I take up the clarinet so I could play polkas. Could have been worse, they are a lot of fun to dance to.

But. The degree of venom spewed against plain ol normal non musicians taste is just uncalled for. Why should what others like throw you into this? How does my mom loving LW effect your life, other than it being some bizarre self issue? Is this your own bitterness over your own career choice? Anyone stepping into classical or jazz expecting success equal to or over what popular musicians can accomplish clearly is deluded. Or more likely was sold a bill of goods by their college music program.

We are in the end just hired help. A step above the cook. We musicians are too insulated to realize what the general public thinks.

[Dennis D]

Uh, please follow the flow of posts; My question was to those elites at this thread that appear to believe anyone that listens to someone like Pat Boone is tone-deaf by default.

Anyhow, I agree with you here. For some being a musician is a job. Only the few have a job where they can do only what they want.

Sorry and thx for the correction.

[Marinero]

Uh, please follow the flow of posts; My question was to those elites at this thread that appear to believe anyone that listens to someone like Pat Boone is tone-deaf by default.

Anyhow, I agree with you here. For some being a musician is a job. Only the few have a job where they can do only what they want.

Hi, J,
At one time in America, the term "elite" meant the best of the best: elite athlete, elite chef, elite machinist, elite musician . . . Today, among the "Woke" crowd where "everyone's the same" it has become a pejorative term since it denies the fact that among human beings as well as everywhere else in nature . . . it exists. So, to return to PB, if someone listens to his "music" and believes he is a good/great vocalist despite his inability to sing in pitch/tune, would it not be fair to say that they are "tone-deaf?" And, if you listened to a recording of a guitarist who was, at best, mediocre in his skill set and his guitar was badly out of tune, would you be an "elite" to point out the obvious? Shaming people for "elitism" is contrary to human nature, contrary to the recorded historical achievements of Man and a pathetic attempt to silence any constructive criticism that details real and quantifiable differences in skill sets among human populations. And, it is dishonest at the core.
Play live . . . Marinero

[jameslovestal]

Hi, J,
At one time in America, the term "elite" meant the best of the best: elite athlete, elite chef, elite machinist, elite musician . . . Today, among the "Woke" crowd where "everyone's the same" it has become a pejorative term since it denies the fact that among human beings as well as everywhere else in nature . . . it exists. So, to return to PB, if someone listens to his "music" and believes he is a good/great vocalist despite his inability to sing in pitch/tune, would it not be fair to say that they are "tone-deaf?" And, if you listened to a recording of a guitarist who was, at best, mediocre in his skill set and his guitar was badly out of tune, would you be an "elite" to point out the obvious? Shaming people for "elitism" is contrary to human nature, contrary to the recorded historical achievements of Man and a pathetic attempt to silence any constructive criticism that details real and quantifiable differences in skill sets among human populations. And, it is dishonest at the core.
Play live . . . Marinero

Looks to me like you need a hug. I just don't see the need to put down others as a way to pick myself up.

[Dennis D]

Speaking of dishonesty - as far as I know, PB never at all claimed to be an elite singer. He's just Pat Boone.
And I'm pretty sure his fans have never claimed he was elite either. They just like him. If they happen to hear he's off pitch every so often, they probably say something like 'so be it '.
And if some of them don't know when PB or anyone else is off pitch, so what ? No one's been offended, no one's been hurt.

His fans get a smile on their faces for a little while, so what's the harm ?

[ronjazz]

So was Barney Kessell "simply making money off the tone-deaf" when he played on the Welk show?

Well, Barney chose studio work, which included Beach Boys records and Lawrence Welk, neither of which he got anything but money from. So, yes, that's what he was doing. The difference is, Barney could actually play at a world-class level, and certainly didn't make his reputation selling crap.

[ronjazz]

Liking polka music doesn't necessarily make you tone deaf.

True. But it did cause my Polish mom to insist I take up the clarinet so I could play polkas. Could have been worse, they are a lot of fun to dance to.

But. The degree of venom spewed against plain ol normal non musicians taste is just uncalled for. Why should what others like throw you into this? How does my mom loving LW effect your life, other than it being some bizarre self issue? Is this your own bitterness over your own career choice? Anyone stepping into classical or jazz expecting success equal to or over what popular musicians can accomplish clearly is deluded. Or more likely was sold a bill of goods by their college music program.

We are in the end just hired help. A step above the cook. We musicians are too insulated to realize what the general public thinks.

Still doesn't mean we can't be perfectly honest about the Pat Boones of the world. It's not venom, it's simply opinion. Not a single person here insulted your mom, either. You appear to have some issues.

[ronjazz]

Looks to me like you need a hug. I just don't see the need to put down others as a way to pick myself up.

Funny, that's exactly what you're doing.

[Lobomov]

Funny, that's exactly what you're doing.

Yeah, but for jameslovestal it's a once in a blue moon thing unlike for Marinero where it's a daily occurrence ... I mean, the list has no end and even includes people like Metheny, Sco and McLaughlin for being hacks from a rock background that diluted jazz thru their lack of insight into the true nature of it


I really think we should give him a large group hug!

[jameslovestal]

Well, Barney chose studio work, which included Beach Boys records and Lawrence Welk, neither of which he got anything but money from. So, yes, that's what he was doing. The difference is, Barney could actually play at a world-class level, and certainly didn't make his reputation selling crap.

Is someone tone-deaf if they listen to say, John Coltrane, but also listen to crap like Pat Boone?

[Lobomov]

Is someone tone-deaf if they listen to say, John Coltrane, but also listen to crap like Pat Boone?

Pat made a living, while it sounds like Barney struggled ... 9 out of 10 people would not be in doubt who the loser of those two is.

Elitist gate keeping combined with the age old worshiping of struggling artist in order to justify that it's not lack of talent, but just God's will that you too are struggling.

If I had to choose between being Pat Boone and being Barney Kessel, I'd pick being Pat any day.


Edit:
Had to google
Pat Boone net worth: Pat Boone is an American singer, actor and writer who has a net worth of $50 million.

[jameslovestal]

Yeah, but for jameslovestal it's a once in a blue moon thing unlike for Marinero where it's a daily occurrence ... I mean, the list has no end and even includes people like Metheny, Sco and McLaughlin for being hacks from a rock background that diluted jazz thru their lack of insight into the true nature of it


I really think we should give him a large group hug!

Hey, thanks for the back-up. Yea, I did realize my comment could be viewed as a put down, but it was sincere. Someone that needs to put down other artist \ musicians, especially non-jazz ones, at a jazz forum, comes off as very needy and insecure.

Also, that tone-deaf comment was to me way out of line; OK, if someone ONLY listened to Pat Boone, I can see how the tone-deaf comment could apply, but most people I know listen to music I define as crap, but they also listen to music I define as being very good.

My wife is one of them; She loves jazz, goes to concerts with me, and likes the music I play (both records and my own hacking). She also loves classical music. But when she goes out with the gals,,, I'm glad I'm not there to have to listen to the music there're playing. That doesn't make them tone-deaf.

[Lobomov]

Hey, thanks for the back-up.

No problem .. But it goes much deeper than that .. I mean, people should do what they are passionate about and if that brings them success then more power to them. Be it comedy, pop or just being a janitor .. I applaud Pat Boone .. as I applaud Weird Al. People like that are Black Swan's. Unique persons that have done something no one can replicate.

I mean, if it's that easy go out and milk the tone deaf for 50 million USD yourself

[wintermoon]

"If I had to choose between being Pat Boone and being Barney Kessel, I'd pick being Pat any day."

not me, not even close. who cares about money? I'd rather be one of the greatest jazz guitarists of all time.