Joe Pass After 25 Years

[eh6794-2.0]

What a cathartic thread! Let it all out!

It's always an emotional roller coaster when I'm involved!!!!

[Hep To The Jive]

Interesting thing, like I love listening to Wes or Sco more, ok, but if I need to transcribe a solo or a phrase Joe Pass is easier for me to grasp than any of those guys, it fits more naturally. Isn't it strange?

[grahambop]

Joe played great single-note bebop solos, this was one of the first solos I transcribed and I learned a ton of bebop vocabulary from it.

[MarkRhodes]

Joe Pass and Herb Ellis were both known to play their Gibsons through Polytones. I'm not sure they're both doing that here but I love to hear them play together.

I prefer Herb's tone to Joe's but both of these sound great to me.

[lawson-stone]

My assessment is that we are going through a "Joe Pass is Great But No Longer Cool" phase in musical opinion. Pendulums swing back and forth, and when a master is gone, lesser souls like to come and pull on the lion's mane. It has become almost orthodoxy to say "Joe Pass was great BUT..." then list a bunch of caveats that typically don't really account for a very large swatch of his playing. So he didn't obsess over tone. He liked hard-driving bop with regular, hard swinging long lines. He played aggressively. He liked to ornament, and then ornament the ornaments. He was exploding with things to play, and he seemed to have no real barrier to his technique within his chosen idiom. He recorded a ton of stuff; maybe some was not ready for prime time, but his fans are glad even for recordings that aren't perfect. He didn't patch, punch in, or fix things. He chose the take he liked, and that was it. He really improvised. Pisano said Joe might go weeks without touching his guitar, then tune it only moments before going on stage, and boom he was "there" with everything.

Someone that expressive, that full of musical life, will also be exposed to criticism. But I am reminded of a description of a character in Steinbeck's East of Eden:

""Like most technicians, he had a terror and a contempt for speculation…he never fell, never slipped back, never flew…"

Joe flew. He risked slipping, fallling, painting himself into more than one corner musically.... but God, the man flew.

[Hep To The Jive]

My assessment is that we are going through a "Joe Pass is Great But No Longer Cool" phase in musical opinion. Pendulums swing back and forth, and when a master is gone, lesser souls like to come and pull on the lion's mane. It has become almost orthodoxy to say "Joe Pass was great BUT..." then list a bunch of caveats that typically don't really account for a very large swatch of his playing. So he didn't obsess over tone. He liked hard-driving bop with regular, hard swinging long lines. He played aggressively. He liked to ornament, and then ornament the ornaments. He was exploding with things to play, and he seemed to have no real barrier to his technique within his chosen idiom. He recorded a ton of stuff; maybe some was not ready for prime time, but his fans are glad even for recordings that aren't perfect. He didn't patch, punch in, or fix things. He chose the take he liked, and that was it. He really improvised. Pisano said Joe might go weeks without touching his guitar, then tune it only moments before going on stage, and boom he was "there" with everything.

Someone that expressive, that full of musical life, will also be exposed to criticism. But I am reminded of a description of a character in Steinbeck's East of Eden:

""Like most technicians, he had a terror and a contempt for speculation…he never fell, never slipped back, never flew…"

Joe flew. He risked slipping, fallling, painting himself into more than one corner musically.... but God, the man flew.

Basically right. The man is highly respected and loved, but not generally followed by the young blood. Even though, there are exception, like Pasquale Grasso. I would consider him a continuation of JP tradition.

On a bigger picture, players like Sco and that generation, I feel like are becoming old news as well. Unfortunately! The nerd jazz is flavor of the year, and I honestly take Joe Pass over todays 'hip' any time.

So it goes around, the only eternally cool players IMO are Wes and Charlie Christian haha. But I maybe wrong here too.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

On a bigger picture, players like Sco and that generation, I feel like are becoming old news as well.

Sco is just rubbing our noses in it now...

[ragman1]

So he didn't obsess over tone. He liked hard-driving bop with regular, hard swinging long lines. He played aggressively. He liked to ornament, and then ornament the ornaments. He was exploding with things to play, and he seemed to have no real barrier to his technique within his chosen idiom. He recorded a ton of stuff; maybe some was not ready for prime time, but his fans are glad even for recordings that aren't perfect. He didn't patch, punch in, or fix things. He chose the take he liked, and that was it. He really improvised. Pisano said Joe might go weeks without touching his guitar, then tune it only moments before going on stage, and boom he was "there" with everything.

Someone that expressive, that full of musical life, will also be exposed to criticism. But I am reminded of a description of a character in Steinbeck's East of Eden:

""Like most technicians, he had a terror and a contempt for speculation…he never fell, never slipped back, never flew…"

Joe flew. He risked slipping, fallling, painting himself into more than one corner musically.... but God, the man flew.

Exactly.

I have, I regret, utter contempt beyond words for the sort of mind that misses the genius and can only complain about the recording quality, or the colours of the album sleeve, or some other stupid thing. It's not just snobbery, it's far worse than that.

Perhaps they think Joe Pass, or others like him, engineered and designed their own albums!

[Jazzstdnt]

after the new crop of players arrived, like Sco, Abercrombie, Frisell, they set new standards for jazz guitar, and especially swing/time feel, which was hipper and better suited for playing in ensembles IMO.

Great players, but I don't see how they set new standards for "swing". Swing is NOT the word that comes to mind when one thinks of these guys. Their time feel was/is different because it was NOT swing. Modern players moved the time feel away from swing, or at least straight-ahead style swing.

It's called Post-Bop, it's called Fusion, it's called World, heck it's even called pop/rock/country where Frisell and Scofield are concerned. Sheesh.

[takauya]

[matcarsa]

There will never be another Joe Pass.

There will be others who are great too.

I disagree. He was the first one to play chords like a pianist and single lines soloing like a wind instrument altogether with a guitar. There won't be another one to do that.

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[takauya]

I disagree. He was the first one to play chords like a pianist and single lines soloing like a wind instrument altogether with a guitar. There won't be another one to do that.

Are you confused with Jim Hall, right?

[Drumbler]

I disagree. He was the first one to play chords like a pianist and single lines soloing like a wind instrument altogether with a guitar. There won't be another one to do that.

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[Jazzstdnt]

I've written this before but I'll say it again.

I read that he was in rehab when he started to play his guitar by himself and wanted to get a full band effect so played walking bass lines, chordal accompaniment, and single lines, all by himself because he had no choice. Someone at the facility said "that sounds great, play some more Joe", to which Joe said "nobody wants to hear this stuff". Obviously he changed his mind.

The thing is, he would play in this style on all manner of tunes - not just ballads. He would play walking bass, chordal rhythms, and single lines, sometimes two at a time. Sometimes he would play only one of these elements at a time but not long enough for the listener to forget the other parts. In this manner he could provide the illusion of a full band in the listener's mind without using a looper or rhythm track etc. He would always swing, keep excellent time, tap his foot and maintain forward motion.

Other players had played similar things, and had played solo jazz guitar, but not quite like Joe. Not with as much repertoire, not as fully and effectively, and not with the same improvisation chops.

I think that's what set him apart. People who had no idea who he was, or had any interest in jazz, found out.

[lawson-stone]

I've written this before but I'll say it again.

I read that he was in rehab when he started to play his guitar by himself and wanted to get a full band effect so played walking bass lines, chordal accompaniment, and single lines, all by himself because he had no choice. Someone at the facility said "that sounds great, play some more Joe", to which Joe said "nobody wants to hear this stuff". Obviously he changed his mind.

The thing is, he would play in this style on all manner of tunes - not just ballads. He would play walking bass, chordal rhythms, and single lines, sometimes two at a time. Sometimes he would play only one of these elements at a time but not long enough for the listener to forget the other parts. In this manner he could provide the illusion of a full band in the listener's mind without using a looper or rhythm track etc. He would always swing, keep excellent time, tap his foot and maintain forward motion.

Other players had played similar things, and had played solo jazz guitar, but not quite like Joe. Not with as much repertoire, not as fully and effectively, and not with the same improvisation chops.

I think that's what set him apart. People who had no idea who he was, or had any interest in jazz, found out.

And something about how he did it made it possible for him to fill countless concert halls and sell stacks of albums doing it. He was the Segovia of solo jazz guitar.

[AndyV]

Joe's solo playing was so pianistic and orchestral in its conception and execution and, as you say, delivered with that feeling of forward propulsion and always, with solid, unflagging swing. While people like Johnny Smith had beautifully accompanied singers, Joe's work with Ella really stood out in its orchestral feeling with multiple voices and all parts serving as an amazing bed of sound for her. He was also like a cat in the way he would anticipate and follow her, always being there with the perfect accompaniment.

When I earlier mentioned Joe's time feel, I was mostly talking about his single note playing which, to my ear, could sometimes have a very quarter note or four-to-the-bar rooted time feel as opposed to players like Wes or Howard Roberts, whose single note lines sometimes felt like they were floating over the groove. In any case, Joe's music really connected with people including non-musicians in ways that most of us can only dream of doing. He directly communicated from the heart through his instrument. I can't think of a better legacy for which to be remembered.

[John A.]

I've written this before but I'll say it again.

I read that he was in rehab when he started to play his guitar by himself and wanted to get a full band effect so played walking bass lines, chordal accompaniment, and single lines, all by himself because he had no choice. Someone at the facility said "that sounds great, play some more Joe", to which Joe said "nobody wants to hear this stuff". Obviously he changed his mind.

The thing is, he would play in this style on all manner of tunes - not just ballads. He would play walking bass, chordal rhythms, and single lines, sometimes two at a time. Sometimes he would play only one of these elements at a time but not long enough for the listener to forget the other parts. In this manner he could provide the illusion of a full band in the listener's mind without using a looper or rhythm track etc. He would always swing, keep excellent time, tap his foot and maintain forward motion.

Other players had played similar things, and had played solo jazz guitar, but not quite like Joe. Not with as much repertoire, not as fully and effectively, and not with the same improvisation chops.

I think that's what set him apart. People who had no idea who he was, or had any interest in jazz, found out.

Purely on a technical level, some of the blues guys (e.g., Blind Blake, Gary Davis, Mississippi John Hurt, Robert Johnson) and early jazz guys (e.g., Carl Kress, Eddie Lang), had the contrapuntal improvisation thing down as early as the '20s. FWIW, none of them, not even Pass, was on the same plane as a "lap pianist" as George Van Eps. But Pass brought bebop (both the harmony and the rhythm) to the table in new and unique way. He also made it (contrapuntal solo guitar improv) seem natural and easy in a new way -- Tal Farlow or Barney Kessel doing chord melody sound like they're working pretty hard, and there's a kind of showing-off quality to it (or it least it strikes me that way). For Pass, it just seems (to me anyway) a much more fluid, natural thing, and I think that more than anything else is the paradigm shift.

John

[joe2758]

And something about how he did it made it possible for him to fill countless concert halls and sell stacks of albums doing it. He was the Segovia of solo jazz guitar.

He was a trailblazer like Segovia. But are we talking about Joe Pass in the context of WHEN he was playing, or to today's players? To be honest, Segovia's playing is laughable by today's concert guitar standards-- that doesn't mean it wasn't mind blowing at the time.

I don't think Joe's playing is laughable, far from it, there's just modern players who built upon what he has done that I like better.

[John A.]

I love Joe Pass and he is why I wanted to play jazz. However, over the years, I have become SLIGHTLY critical of his playing (for example his right hand). Now, in no way do I believe he was a bad player, I just mean I hear a few things that I believe could have been improved upon. But again, please understand that I think he is an allstar and a jazz great!

Over the years, I have heard a few players who took Joe's style (I define his style to be someone whose hands are fast enough to fill in the space and create a second melody with the rhythm) and improved on it; one of those players is Pasquale Grasso. In my opinion, he is Joe on steroids.

Then on YouTube last week I heard this young French kid named Antoine Boyer. Like Pasquale, he has a classical background, and I think that is important.

In the comment section (the greatest place for intellectual conversations hahah), someone said one day he may be is good as Joe Pass. I got a few nasty replies because I said I think his playing is better than Joe's.

You may not know Antoine, but in general, am I off base?

I hadn't heard of Antoine Boyer before, and just listened to some stuff on youtube. I don't see how you can say he's better. Boyer is very very good, and does some interesting stuff, but the aesthetic is too different to allow for better/worse comparisons. Also, just a guess on my part, but the Boyer solo pieces I heard strike me as more pre-arranged than what Pass did. I'd have to hear Boyer in a more complete live performance to really get a sense of what he's about. I'd also have to hear him in a jazz group context to assess him as a jazz musician.


John

[lawson-stone]

Purely on a technical level, some of the blues guys (e.g., Blind Blake, Gary Davis, Mississippi John Hurt, Robert Johnson) and early jazz guys (e.g., Carl Kress, Eddie Lang), had the contrapuntal improvisation thing down as early as the '20s. FWIW, none of them, not even Pass, was on the same plane as a "lap pianist" as George Van Eps. But Pass brought bebop (both the harmony and the rhythm) to the table in new and unique way. He also made it (contrapuntal solo guitar improv) seem natural and easy in a new way -- Tal Farlow or Barney Kessel doing chord melody sound like they're working pretty hard, and there's a kind of showing-off quality to it (or it least it strikes me that way). For Pass, it just seems (to me anyway) a much more fluid, natural thing, and I think that more than anything else is the paradigm shift.

John

I think also the fact that he could do this improvisationally, in an almost limitless fashion, sets him apart. Many of the other great solo players tended to play variations on arrangements, relied on special tunings, etc. Joe played an off-the-rack archtop, plugged into whatever he had, and launched into improvisational solo guitar playing that was just amazing. Add to that the vast repertoire of tunes in his head...

[dot75]

I think also the fact that he could do this improvisationally, in an almost limitless fashion, sets him apart.

+1 for this...

I saw Barney Kessle, Jim Hall, Tal Farlow and others play solo gigs, loved them all but with Pass you knew he didn't do arrangements or have a set list beyond the opening tune, He'd change key or reharmonise a tune on the fly if he thought he was being predictable. I haven't seen another guitar player who does that at his level.

I saw him ask for requests once at Ronnie Scott's, someone called out Giant Steps & he did his 'why are guitar players obsessed with how fast can you play' talk (I heard it more than once), played a chorus of GS at metronome stupid & then said 'doesn't anyone know any good tunes anymore?'. The usual standards started to be suggested, he'd play a few bars & stop - it turned into a competition to find a tune he didn't know, Ronnie Scott himself finally came up with a song he had to be reminded of & he carried on...

[ESCC]

Yes Lawson, Joe does smoke.

Here he is in his backyard, smoking in more ways than 1.

[guitarbuddy]

I've written this before but I'll say it again.

I read that he was in rehab when he started to play his guitar by himself and wanted to get a full band effect so played walking bass lines, chordal accompaniment, and single lines, all by himself because he had no choice. Someone at the facility said "that sounds great, play some more Joe", to which Joe said "nobody wants to hear this stuff". Obviously he changed his mind.

You may have read this from something I wrote, because I had a primary source for the info. I worked with a fabulous drummer - which doesn't begin to describe all the things he was good at - named A.D. Mannion for 15 years. A.D. grew up in NY and knew and played with Pass there, and they were roommates at a Synanon halfway house in Los Angeles and played together on the West Coast. There are two videos of them playing together on a TV show called Frankly Jazz which I'll link at the bottom of the page. It wasn't that Joe started playing that way at Synanon - his dad had basically taught him to play that way when he was a kid - but A.D. said Joe would play solo guitar all day at the house. A.D. was one of the humblest guys I've ever known, but he told me once, only half-joking, that he was responsible for Joe's Virtuoso album. He said he would tell Joe he should make an album of solo guitar, to which Joe replied "nobody wants to hear this stuff" - your exact words.

Here's the interview where Joe talks about his dad and how he started playing. I know a lot of people have assumed Joe didn't read music well, but here he talks about playing out of Nick Lucas and Carcassi's classical guitar books as a kid, and I'm sure he had to hone his reading chops to work in the studios in LA. John Williams played a bit with Joe in the early 1990s and said that he read very well, so there's that corroboration as well.

[ESCC]

A number of years ago I was working on a Joe Pass arrangement of They Can't Take That Away from Me. While learning it I searched videos of Joe playing the song, I believe I found two and each one was different and unique in it's own way. I purchased recordings of Joe playing it, again, each one was different and unique . . . the man was a master. As mentioned earlier in this thread, on a whim he could re-harmonize, change keys and make the song completely his, imho, he was incredible.

[voxss]

as someone who has been behind the walls im fascinated what jazz players were..i know Joe did some time anyone got any details...Art Pepper: jazz alto saxophone player; served two sentences at San Quentin in the 1960s..Dextor gordon was there and part of the rehabiliation program was the jazz band..Billy Holliday 1 year of federal rehabilitation..chet baker the trumpeter was on 6g of heroin a day by the time he died....... Nelson Rockefeller, the Rockefeller Drug Laws (RDLs) required long prison terms for the possession or sale of relatively small amounts of drugs....having 2 joints could get you 5 years at Angola Penitentiary ask Charles Neville Saxophonist..many great musicians who were sent to the penitentiary for drug offenses..as the saying goes `“I’m running out of everything now. Out of veins, out of money.”