Joe Pass Chord and Scale Grips

[gnatola]

Watching a clip on YouTube, Joe Pass Trio - Club Date 1989. Amazing. Did JP use the standard jazz grips that we all know? Or, was he doing something more sophisticated?

In my opinion, Pass was the greatest all-around jazz guitarist. Monster be-bop chops. Solo guitar, obviously. Great accompanist. I'm amazed by the effortlessness of his playing. How was he able to move from chord to chord so quickly and seamlessly?

[Groyniad]

he started very young

his father insisted he play tunes they knew (and they were good tunes)

so he had to get the tunes to come across (to a demanding audience) as well as the chords (right from the start)

he doesn't use difficult chord shapes because you can't get to them quickly enough 'in the heat of battle'

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i can't help thinking that the reasons one might have to think of pass as the greatest all-rounder are really reasons to think of barney kessel as the greatest all-rounder

are joe's lines so much better - hipper - than barney's that they make up for everything else?

i had 'intercontinental' right at the beginning of my jazz life and adored it - but the bk poll winners albums are (almost all of them) more compelling i think (the trio sound is incredible in all of them).

and his solo-guitar stuff never sounded very appealing to me - i don't like solo piano stuff that much for the same reasons - hard to generate the same time feel etc.

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but seriously - isn't it barney who has to get top dog as all-round jazz guitar king? i suppose this is a different thread - if so, - sorry...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think there's room for both in the pantheon.

[vintagelove]

1 - Joe is the man

He actually states that he doesn't play hard chords, because by the time you get there, you can't do anything with it. If you want to learn his style, check out his chord book and his theory book. And PLAY!!!

[destinytot]

Surely Joe gets a Pass?

[TH]

Why don't we ask the man himself? I noticed Joe Pass is a contributing member to this forum. Maybe if he's reading this thread...
David

[setemupjoe]

Why don't we ask the man himself? I noticed Joe Pass is a contributing member to this forum. Maybe if he's reading this thread...
David

Lol. And while you're at it I think Barney and Tal and Wes popped in here the other day as well. I could get a seance going perhaps?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Lol. And while you're at it I think Barney and Tal and Wes popped in here the other day as well. I could get a seance going perhaps?

And who would have thought Django would become such a big Tele fan!

[mr. beaumont]

I think the poll winners albums are dreadfully boring.

I think Pass recorded with tones during his career that render certain albums unlistenable, despite the great playing.

They were human. So sue 'em. I love 'em both.

[henryrobinett]

Personally I think the quest to turn music into an Olympic sporting event has harmed more than it's helped the cause. Musicians are different and not necessarily better. JP is great and BK is great. Different bop styles. I love them both.


All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
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[cosmic gumbo]

They both had great taste in music and guitars....

[Groyniad]

of course its a bit silly - and maybe worse than that - to talk about who's top dog

but its a bit of fun

and mr b. you are way more sophisticated and sensitive than i am if you find all those poll winners albums (in which bk invents the guitar trio) 'dreadfully boring'

the whole point of his playing is that its bright and breezy and fun - ditto with the arrangements.

its the stuffy clever self-conscious playing that bores me

[mr. beaumont]

I guess I've always been in the minority on those poll winners albums.

I just find Kessel's records under his own name from that era to be a lot more interesting. I should go back and listen, it's been ages, but I remember everything being SOOOOO arranged...too west coast for me. And truthfully, aside from a few choice records here and there which I really like, guitar/bass/drum trios always sound boring to me.

[daveg]

If we all liked the same things then there would be no variety in anyone's playing. FWIW Joe's solo playing, as accomplished as it is, bores me to tears. Martin has the same effect on me. The first three Poll Winners albums are classics, even though they sound a little "arranged" - BK denied this. Wes' "Incredible Jazz Guitar" was not as incredible as his trio albums with Mel Rhyne and his Verve albums such as "Movin' Wes", "Bumpin'" and "Going Out Of My Head" if you REALLY listen to them. But that's just one man's opinion based on 50+ years of listening.

[Groyniad]

If we all liked the same things then there would be no variety in anyone's playing. FWIW Joe's solo playing, as accomplished as it is, bores me to tears. Martin has the same effect on me. The first three Poll Winners albums are classics, even though they sound a little "arranged" - BK denied this. Wes' "Incredible Jazz Guitar" was not as incredible as his trio albums with Mel Rhyne and his Verve albums such as "Movin' Wes", "Bumpin'" and "Going Out Of My Head" if you REALLY listen to them. But that's just one man's opinion based on 50+ years of listening.

lots in here to take notice of i think - thanks for the tips - i'll follow them up

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i get what you're saying mr b. - they do soundvery arranged - but i think that is more about how easy they are to hear than about how much preparation went into them.

if bk says they weren't heavily arranged i bet he's telling the truth. i think all three guys did SO much work on snappy arrangements (especially with Oscar - but all round) - that they could probably invent 5 different simple arrangements of any given tune - TOGETHER - on the trot. and that without breaking sweat.

i dig that

they would all be trying really hard to invent snappy - immediately appealing - arrangements too - 'poppy' arrangements even.

but they're utterly jazz - and they're not treated as if they matter much (i like that too). they're a bit throw-away. but i admire very very deeply the sort of uncluttered musicality that can come up with this stuff on demand. they all know it doesn't mean that much - but its great fun etc. etc.

don't hear that enough i think. i think kessel blew very very well structured lines (man).

[robertoart]

Just to remember Mr Pass could get pretty funky too in his younger days!

[wintermoon]

Just to remember Mr Pass could get pretty funky too in his younger days!

???
cool, never heard this before.

[Max405]

I've gotten out of trying to judge which one is better than the other.
The players that I don't think are all that great are 1000 times better than me anyway so who am I judge..

The thing that blows me away about Joe was this came to him so naturally. When I learn a Joe Pass song, it takes me months. And his stuff is playable because his structures and voicings are rather normal. Roy Clark said he was in awe of how Joe just picked up a guitar and did whatever was asked of him, without practice and without even trying. He would look at a piece and start recording it minutes later. He was a brilliant genious. He could do anything.

He was great. There are only a few of those.

JD

[lawson-stone]

I agree with Joe above that trying to decide "the best" is crazy. I do, however, think a pretty factual case can be made that Joe Pass was/is the most fully realized mainstream jazz guitarist in history. Note I didn't say "best" but simply the most fully realized. He explored more of the potential of the jazz guitar than anyone before or after.

Consider the following facts about Joe Pass's actual recordings and performances:

• Fully assimilated the bebop language and integrated with swing-you don't hear "layers" of Charlie Christian, then Charlie Parker, then back to CC... which is something I do hear with Barney Kessell and Herb Ellis
• Undisputed master of the classic single-note line style (“Night and Day” on For Django is canonic)
• Mastered the Trio format: guitar, bass, drums on numerous recordings and gigs
• Mastered the Drum-less trio: Guitar, bass, piano
• Played head-to-head against any pianist (Oscar Peterson)
• Guitar-Bass Duo: Red Mitchell, Nils Henning Orsted-Pedersen
• Guitar-Trombone Duo (Trombone?)
• Guitar-Vocalist duo with Ella Fitzgerald
• Improvisational Solo Guitar, all tempos, all genres (Giant Steps!)
• Acoustic guitar in ensemble (Appasionato, Summer Nights)
• Acoustic guitar solo, including nylon string
• Improvisational Mastery
• Encyclopedic knowledge of tunes-seriously, look at the playlist for Appasionato
• Could play pop tunes in jazz style (Sunshine of my Life, Feelings!!)
• Played country with Roy Clark
• A couple albums with strings
• Played funk and 60's era pop with Carol Kaye
• Played bebop type lines on a 12-String
• Played with Count Basie, Duke Ellington

Finally, nobody listens to Joe Pass because of an eccentricity of technique. It's not his thumb, it's not that he holds the pick differently, not that he chicken-picks with flat-pick and fingers. He had some peculiarities, but they aren't really anything anyone cares about. Nor is Joe Pass someone whose career depended on a particular tone or sound. Whether it was Gibson, D'aquino, Ibanez, or Epiphone, Polytone or Direct Box, Joe Pass was known for the music he played, not some peculiarity of tone.

Whether I or any other individual "like" this more than some other player is a different question. But I would really like to know what other "mainstream" jazz guitar player can match this record of accomplishment, done with the effortless mastery and ironic self-mockery for which Joe Pass was known and loved?

Honestly, the only person that comes to mind for me is Pat Metheny.

[Stringswinger]

For me, two players stand above the rest, Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery. I love Barney and many others, but Joe and Wes hit blues drenched grooves that speaks to me in a very deep way.

That said, I once asked Herb Ellis (a cat who could play more jazz guitar than anyone on this forum ever will) who HE thought the greatest jazz guitarist of all time was. Joe Pass was Herb's reply.

Who are any of us to disagree?

[Groyniad]

i think i was thinking about herb's remark about joe when i gave barney my vote

btw - just for the record

Lawson - nobody listens to wes because he's got some hip thing going on with his thumb! or if they do, they should get out much more.

people listen to wes because everything he plays feels fantastic - he's like the goddam wynton kelly of the guitar - i bet wynton kelly sometimes wished he could play things that felt that good. (imagine making wynton kelly feel less hip than he would like to be!!!)

etc.

when we say 'all-round' i'm assuming what we mean is that the player does solo stuff and singer accompaniment etc. as well as straight ahead blowing - or that he does quite a lot of 'chord melody' stuff as well as straight ahead blowing - or that he uses chordal passages as well as single note passages a lot in his improvising?

this is not my thing really - but its interesting from a guitar-player point of view.

i think it has to be barney because of barney's role in the tradition. he invented the guitar trio - he brought cc's bag to the mature bop style and in doing so invented modern jazz guitar (at least more than anyone else). (he did lots of important recordings with bird for goodness sake!).

joe pass is a 70's musician - and it was all over by then. (i'm just trying to be concise here)

jp did not bring bop guitar to its fruition - that happened with Jimmy Raney and Tal Farlow (who is the other real contender for bets all-rounder i think). So just what his musical innovations are is not so clear.

that's why i can't see him as the main all-rounder guy.

(good list of jp's achievements Lawson.)

another thing strikes me - i much prefer oscar with ray and herb than with jp.

[lawson-stone]

i think i was thinking about herb's remark about joe when i gave barney my vote

btw - just for the record

Lawson - nobody listens to wes because he's got some hip thing going on with his thumb! or if they do, they should get out much more.

people listen to wes because everything he plays feels fantastic - he's like the goddam wynton kelly of the guitar - i bet wynton kelly sometimes wished he could play things that felt that good. (imagine making wynton kelly feel less hip than he would like to be!!!)

etc.

when we say 'all-round' i'm assuming what we mean is that the player does solo stuff and singer accompaniment etc. as well as straight ahead blowing - or that he does quite a lot of 'chord melody' stuff as well as straight ahead blowing - or that he uses chordal passages as well as single note passages a lot in his improvising?

this is not my thing really - but its interesting from a guitar-player point of view.

i think it has to be barney because of barney's role in the tradition. he invented the guitar trio - he brought cc's bag to the mature bop style and in doing so invented modern jazz guitar (at least more than anyone else). (he did lots of important recordings with bird for goodness sake!).

joe pass is a 70's musician - and it was all over by then. (i'm just trying to be concise here)

jp did not bring bop guitar to its fruition - that happened with Jimmy Raney and Tal Farlow (who is the other real contender for bets all-rounder i think). So just what his musical innovations are is not so clear.

that's why i can't see him as the main all-rounder guy.

(good list of jp's achievements Lawson.)

another thing strikes me - i much prefer oscar with ray and herb than with jp.

I really think this is kind of a bizarre assessment of Joe Pass. When I stood in the congregation at his funeral and looked around at so many from the music and jazz world who filled that church--many in a church for the first time in decades!--"all over" is just not the word that came to mind. Your prejudice against music coming after the 60's is driving you more than actual musical facts and accomplishments on this point, I think. Those of us who think jazz actually continued to evolve and even get better after the 60's are not bound by your chronological boundaries.

What I described above were facts, not opinions or evaluations. I know of no other guitarist who did all that Joe Pass did, to the degree that he did it, and as easily and enjoyably as he did it.

I'm floored that you think Kessell somehow represents a higher level of accomplishment. He was a fabulous player, but listening to him you can actually switch between "Now he sounds like CC" and "Now he sounds like CP." His solo playing is rudimentary and never approaches the integration of melodic improvisation, moving bass-lines, moving chord voices, substitutions, and clean articulation that Joe Pass seemed to pull off so effortlessly. The sweeps and slurs pile up a little to deep for me in some of those trio recordings. That said, I love listening to BK. What guitarist wouldn't?

But I think your "Nothing Much Happens after the 60's" glasses are actually blinkers.

[gmek]

Whether I or any other individual "like" this more than some other player is a different question. But I would really like to know what other "mainstream" jazz guitar player can match this record of accomplishment, done with the effortless mastery and ironic self-mockery for which Joe Pass was known and loved?

I love Joe Pass, and I agree we can't really say one master is better than another. But I still want to put Jim Hall's name in the running for best all around jazz guitarist. Haha (laughing at the absurdity and persistent desire for categorization)

[lawson-stone]

I love Joe Pass, and I agree we can't really say one master is better than another. But I still want to put Jim Hall's name in the running for best all around jazz guitarist. Haha (laughing at the absurdity and persistent desire for categorization)

First I'd just repeat I'm not saying "best." I intentionally chose the somewhat awkward "most fully realized" in the sense that the player did the most that a mainstream jazz player can do with the guitar, at a very high level of accomplishment and recognition.

So it doesn't have to mean "the best." Nobody in their right mind would pick from among Kessell, Ellis, Pass, Hall, Montgomery... and say one was "better." One might do so, but nobody would be surprised at the furor and debate it stirred.

We can, however, ask, within the general framework of mainstream jazz playing, how broadly and how expertly did a given player do all that could be done with the instrument?

On that score, I think we could say Joe Pass was more fully realized as a jazz guitarist than Wes Montgomery, but that would not mean "better" or "more influential." Likewise, I think Jim Hall would clearly be among those.

While it's senseless to ask "who is best" I do think it can be helpful to ask who seemed to show the guitar's ability to function in multiple, often surprising roles at a high level of expertise. So when Joe Pass, alone, accompanies Ella Fitzgerald in a place like Lexington Kentucky's Rupp Arena, where normally our basketball cult is celebrated, that's pretty amazing.

[mr. beaumont]

I get what you're saying Lawson, but I also disagree...based on the fact that Joe pretty much played one style of jazz, no matter the setting.

If we really want to think about guys who exploited everything the guitar has to offer, we gotta look at cats like Frisell and Metheny.

But all the comparing is silly. Lets just listen to all of them.